Gouv Kiau...?

Pete Ebbink · 04-12-2005, 10:19 PM

Do these markings look right...?

http://www.rockislandauction.com/auc...hp?LotNum=2043

Ron Wood · 04-13-2005, 01:31 AM

No

Navy · 04-13-2005, 06:59 AM

Agree with the stemed Mr Wood.

I have handled 4 or so KIAU guns in the last few years; none look like this.

Tom A

George Anderson · 04-13-2005, 08:34 AM

This is not the only "suspect" Luger in the RIA auction. Of late I have heard rumours to the effect that some shenanigans may be happening in ole Moline. Too bad.

Navy · 04-13-2005, 09:19 AM

Have heard similar rumors. Suspect that some of the known boosters have had their dumping grounds compromised and are now using RIA as the sale of last resort. At least the folks at RIA appear to be making an effort to warn the public, but I am concerned that they use Costanzo so much as a reference.

Soon we will be seeing "Siecherheit Dienst, the notiorious Nazi security service" attributions on Schupo Dusseldorf police guns.

Tom A.

Tomathvl · 04-13-2005, 10:31 AM

Oh great sages,
For the benefit of the neophytes, me for one, what does this marking mean?
Thanks,
Tom

Ron Wood · 04-13-2005, 10:47 AM

GOUV. KIAU. is the German abbreviation for Gouvernement Kiautschou (Chinese is "Kiaochow" which is in the Shantung district). The Germans occupied this location in 1898 and garrisoned elements of the III Seebataillon there until 1914.

Tomathvl · 04-13-2005, 10:54 AM

Thanks Ron!
Tom

Navy · 04-13-2005, 01:19 PM

IIRC,
III S.B. was captured virtually intact by the Japanese and spent the war in POW camp.

Tom A.

George Anderson · 04-13-2005, 02:02 PM

Period photos that I have seen indicate that the German POWs had a rather easy go of it with the Japs. Nothing like the little bastards treated US POWs taken in the Phillipines twenty eight years later.

Pete Ebbink · 04-14-2005, 11:25 AM

Member sent me a jpeg of markings on his piece ...definitely much different than the one on the RIA photo.

Decided not to post...as the photo is in very good detail...and can be studied/copied by those that would try their hand at engraving...and creating more of these rare pieces...

I know some of those folks that do hang out here on the Forum and lurk...

Navy · 04-14-2005, 12:44 PM

Good call, Pete.

Tom A.

luger11 · 04-14-2005, 04:23 PM

DAM GOOD call Pete.

Leo

luger11 · 04-14-2005, 04:31 PM

Pete...that particular piece was purchased about 3 years ago from the third owner, and it took 2 years of negotiating to win it. It is listed in Jan Stills book Imperial Lugers. According to the "Cabals" master sheet there are only twelve others recorded.
The price was 4000. less then I paid for my three bedroom ranch house in 1963, wich was custom built

Big Norm · 04-14-2005, 11:45 PM

Tom,
nice write-up in Jan Stills "Imperial Lugers". Also a nice picture of the markings on Frontispiece 14b in the same book. Even I can see the difference.
Big Norm

Pete Ebbink · 04-15-2005, 11:05 AM

Hi Norm,

I see the nice write up on pages 198-200...but my Frontpiece 14b does not show the Gouv Kiau marking...only a side view of a M1906 Navy and a watercolor of a German cruiser.

My book is the 1994 2nd. printing...is yours a different edition ?

Ron Wood · 04-15-2005, 11:30 AM

1991 Edition (first edition), page xxix.

Pete Ebbink · 04-15-2005, 01:07 PM

Looks like Jan came to a similar conclusion...about posting photos of the real markings...??? 2nd. edition no longer shows it...

Big Norm · 04-17-2005, 01:42 AM

Pete,
If you still live on Condor Way, I'll send you something.
Big Norm

MauserLugers · 04-17-2005, 01:53 AM

Pete,
Do you really think that by not posting a picture here on the forum in 2005 that you are keeping the "bad guys" from knowing what real examples look like? Only thing you're doing is keeping the "good guys" from seeing what is correct. Goodness gracious, these guys have the tools, talent, and knowledge to reproduce anything, have been reproducing stuff for the last 20 years or so, and are getting better and better at it. They know more about finishes and variations than most collectors do, have handled more Lugers than all of us on this forum have put-together, and that is what makes them so successful. They know who has what, when they acquired it, and when it changes hands. Post the pictures as the "bad guys" have all the early books too, and have access to the real, rare stuff anyway. What few shows I've gone to lately have just had more messed with stuff with higher prices. Think about it a minute, just who are the outlets for this junk?-- Bill

04-12-2005, 10:19 PM	#1
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Gouv Kiau...? Do these markings look right...? http://www.rockislandauction.com/auc...hp?LotNum=2043

04-13-2005, 01:31 AM	#2
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	No __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

04-13-2005, 10:47 AM	#7
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	GOUV. KIAU. is the German abbreviation for Gouvernement Kiautschou (Chinese is "Kiaochow" which is in the Shantung district). The Germans occupied this location in 1898 and garrisoned elements of the III Seebataillon there until 1914. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

04-15-2005, 11:30 AM	#17
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	1991 Edition (first edition), page xxix. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

04-13-2005, 06:59 AM	#3
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Agree with the stemed Mr Wood. I have handled 4 or so KIAU guns in the last few years; none look like this. Tom A

04-13-2005, 08:34 AM	#4
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,769 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	This is not the only "suspect" Luger in the RIA auction. Of late I have heard rumours to the effect that some shenanigans may be happening in ole Moline. Too bad.

04-13-2005, 09:19 AM	#5
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Have heard similar rumors. Suspect that some of the known boosters have had their dumping grounds compromised and are now using RIA as the sale of last resort. At least the folks at RIA appear to be making an effort to warn the public, but I am concerned that they use Costanzo so much as a reference. Soon we will be seeing "Siecherheit Dienst, the notiorious Nazi security service" attributions on Schupo Dusseldorf police guns. Tom A.

04-13-2005, 10:31 AM	#6
Tomathvl User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Milan, IN Posts: 363 Thanks: 3 Thanked 48 Times in 19 Posts	Oh great sages, For the benefit of the neophytes, me for one, what does this marking mean? Thanks, Tom

04-13-2005, 10:54 AM	#8
Tomathvl User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Milan, IN Posts: 363 Thanks: 3 Thanked 48 Times in 19 Posts	Thanks Ron! Tom

04-13-2005, 01:19 PM	#9
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	IIRC, III S.B. was captured virtually intact by the Japanese and spent the war in POW camp. Tom A.

04-13-2005, 02:02 PM	#10
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,769 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	Period photos that I have seen indicate that the German POWs had a rather easy go of it with the Japs. Nothing like the little bastards treated US POWs taken in the Phillipines twenty eight years later.

04-14-2005, 11:25 AM	#11
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Member sent me a jpeg of markings on his piece ...definitely much different than the one on the RIA photo. Decided not to post...as the photo is in very good detail...and can be studied/copied by those that would try their hand at engraving...and creating more of these rare pieces... I know some of those folks that do hang out here on the Forum and lurk...

04-14-2005, 12:44 PM	#12
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Good call, Pete. Tom A.

04-14-2005, 04:23 PM	#13
luger11 User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 149 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	DAM GOOD call Pete. Leo

04-14-2005, 04:31 PM	#14
luger11 User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 149 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Pete...that particular piece was purchased about 3 years ago from the third owner, and it took 2 years of negotiating to win it. It is listed in Jan Stills book Imperial Lugers. According to the "Cabals" master sheet there are only twelve others recorded. The price was 4000. less then I paid for my three bedroom ranch house in 1963, wich was custom built

04-14-2005, 11:45 PM	#15
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Tom, nice write-up in Jan Stills "Imperial Lugers". Also a nice picture of the markings on Frontispiece 14b in the same book. Even I can see the difference. Big Norm

04-15-2005, 11:05 AM	#16
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hi Norm, I see the nice write up on pages 198-200...but my Frontpiece 14b does not show the Gouv Kiau marking...only a side view of a M1906 Navy and a watercolor of a German cruiser. My book is the 1994 2nd. printing...is yours a different edition ?

04-15-2005, 01:07 PM	#18
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Looks like Jan came to a similar conclusion...about posting photos of the real markings...??? 2nd. edition no longer shows it...

04-17-2005, 01:42 AM	#19
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Pete, If you still live on Condor Way, I'll send you something. Big Norm

04-17-2005, 01:53 AM	#20
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	Pete, Do you really think that by not posting a picture here on the forum in 2005 that you are keeping the "bad guys" from knowing what real examples look like? Only thing you're doing is keeping the "good guys" from seeing what is correct. Goodness gracious, these guys have the tools, talent, and knowledge to reproduce anything, have been reproducing stuff for the last 20 years or so, and are getting better and better at it. They know more about finishes and variations than most collectors do, have handled more Lugers than all of us on this forum have put-together, and that is what makes them so successful. They know who has what, when they acquired it, and when it changes hands. Post the pictures as the "bad guys" have all the early books too, and have access to the real, rare stuff anyway. What few shows I've gone to lately have just had more messed with stuff with higher prices. Think about it a minute, just who are the outlets for this junk?-- Bill