Cross in Shield Enigma

drbuster · 02-15-2010, 05:58 PM

I have two 1906 C/S lugers, both DWM stamped. The earlier one is Vogelsang proofed and has larger serial number fonts than the later 1906 C/S, double Muhlemann proofed. Were there two separate series of 1906 C/S's? Was the larger fonted one sent to Bern "in the white" to be rust blued there? Was the smaller fonted 1906 C/S sent directly from DWM already blued? Did the serial numbers overlap? Why apparently two separate series or contracts, almost at the same time? Bobba, as far as I can see, did not address this issue in his iconic book. He also didn't address the double Muhlemann proof.

drbuster · 03-14-2010, 04:29 PM

It's almost a month since I posted this Cross in Shield enigma and interest and/or knowledge of Swiss luger history seems not to be out there. Firstly, let me apologize to Vittorio Bobba with respect to mentioning of the double Muhlemann proof. He actually shows a picture of C+S 1906 luger #15140 with the double proof on page 109. He opines that earlier Swiss lugers, between the Vogelsang to Muhlemann transition had only Geneva Crosses stamped on the left side of the receiver. Why the double Muhlemann stamp occurred is still left to conjecture. The different sized fonts is definitely not mentioned in his book. In 1909, the Swiss officially changed its national crest marking from the Swiss Cross in Sunburst to Cross in Shield. The first lugers to bear this crest marking started with serial 10001 to 12000 (1909, 2000 pieces). These were said to come directly from DWM finished and with small fonted numbers. Later lugers above serial #12000 were sent directly to Waffenfabrik Bern in the white and were finished and numbered there. The last lot of these lugers finished up at serial #15215 in 1914 when Waffenfabrik Bern started new production at serial #15216. It is difficult, if not impossible to say where and when larger fonted serial numbers started and ended, or if they were intermittent. Perhaps a data base could be created from Forum members providing information from their C+S lugers. Will this "enigma" ever be solved?

chuck watts · 03-14-2010, 05:53 PM

Herb:

I own 1906 C&S 10401 with a Geneva cross stamped on both R & L sides of the receiver. No Muhlemann or Vogelsang proofs! Both crosses show a "halo". All numbers are of the small fonted DWM style. Gun numbered prior to bluing as evidenced by no "halos". This would have been shipped direct from DWM.

drbuster · 03-14-2010, 07:04 PM

Chuck, thanks for your response. Your Geneva Cross only marked C+S was one of the earlier examples of the first group of DWM finished and numbered lugers sent in 1909. Some of the earliest ones were not proofed by Vogelsang. One example of this type cited in Bobba's book was numbered #11704. It is unknown when Vogelsang started proofing on a regular basis, but by 1911, when my example pictured (#13519) above,he was proofing on a regular basis. Sure would be nice to see if Vogelsang's mark appeared in the #10001-12000 range, whether it was haphazard or ran in series. Note the double Muhlemann proofs were later, in 1914.

drbuster · 04-05-2010, 10:43 PM

To "muddy" the waters further, here is a very nice Cross in Shield in the same serial range, with a Vogelsang proof on the left side of the receiver and a Muhlmann proof on the right side. Will the variations never cease?

03-14-2010, 05:53 PM	#3
chuck watts User Join Date: May 2006 Location: USA Posts: 20 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Herb: I own 1906 C&S 10401 with a Geneva cross stamped on both R & L sides of the receiver. No Muhlemann or Vogelsang proofs! Both crosses show a "halo". All numbers are of the small fonted DWM style. Gun numbered prior to bluing as evidenced by no "halos". This would have been shipped direct from DWM. __________________ chuck watts

04-05-2010, 10:43 PM	#5
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Cross in Shield enigma To "muddy" the waters further, here is a very nice Cross in Shield in the same serial range, with a Vogelsang proof on the left side of the receiver and a Muhlmann proof on the right side. Will the variations never cease? Attached Thumbnails

02-15-2010, 05:58 PM	#1
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Cross in Shield Enigma I have two 1906 C/S lugers, both DWM stamped. The earlier one is Vogelsang proofed and has larger serial number fonts than the later 1906 C/S, double Muhlemann proofed. Were there two separate series of 1906 C/S's? Was the larger fonted one sent to Bern "in the white" to be rust blued there? Was the smaller fonted 1906 C/S sent directly from DWM already blued? Did the serial numbers overlap? Why apparently two separate series or contracts, almost at the same time? Bobba, as far as I can see, did not address this issue in his iconic book. He also didn't address the double Muhlemann proof. Attached Thumbnails

03-14-2010, 04:29 PM	#2
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	It's almost a month since I posted this Cross in Shield enigma and interest and/or knowledge of Swiss luger history seems not to be out there. Firstly, let me apologize to Vittorio Bobba with respect to mentioning of the double Muhlemann proof. He actually shows a picture of C+S 1906 luger #15140 with the double proof on page 109. He opines that earlier Swiss lugers, between the Vogelsang to Muhlemann transition had only Geneva Crosses stamped on the left side of the receiver. Why the double Muhlemann stamp occurred is still left to conjecture. The different sized fonts is definitely not mentioned in his book. In 1909, the Swiss officially changed its national crest marking from the Swiss Cross in Sunburst to Cross in Shield. The first lugers to bear this crest marking started with serial 10001 to 12000 (1909, 2000 pieces). These were said to come directly from DWM finished and with small fonted numbers. Later lugers above serial #12000 were sent directly to Waffenfabrik Bern in the white and were finished and numbered there. The last lot of these lugers finished up at serial #15215 in 1914 when Waffenfabrik Bern started new production at serial #15216. It is difficult, if not impossible to say where and when larger fonted serial numbers started and ended, or if they were intermittent. Perhaps a data base could be created from Forum members providing information from their C+S lugers. Will this "enigma" ever be solved?

03-14-2010, 07:04 PM	#4
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Chuck, thanks for your response. Your Geneva Cross only marked C+S was one of the earlier examples of the first group of DWM finished and numbered lugers sent in 1909. Some of the earliest ones were not proofed by Vogelsang. One example of this type cited in Bobba's book was numbered #11704. It is unknown when Vogelsang started proofing on a regular basis, but by 1911, when my example pictured (#13519) above,he was proofing on a regular basis. Sure would be nice to see if Vogelsang's mark appeared in the #10001-12000 range, whether it was haphazard or ran in series. Note the double Muhlemann proofs were later, in 1914.