Need Help on unknown model

08-29-2001, 09:39 AM

Firearm has on chamber a crown ans says Erfurt.

In front of it (looking down on gun) it has a n with a small crown looking object.

Underneath the barrel, in front of the trigger gaurd there is a number 50465.

There is a 65 where the hammer would be located.

On the left side of the firearm, just above the disassembly lever, there is two markings just like the N with the crown looking thing.

Under the safety, it says Gesichert.

I believe it is a 9mm.

There are absolutely no other markings

Any help would be appreciated.

Thor · 08-29-2001, 09:45 AM

My Guess is a 1920 Commercial model. The Erfurt Crown would be on the front toggle link behind the breech block, not on the chamber (over and above where the round is fired)

Condition is important feature, please estimate percent remaining bluing, strawing etc! ~Thor~

Johnny Peppers · 08-29-2001, 10:01 AM

If the number 50465 is on the receiver, it is probably either a 1906 or 1908 Commercial. Most of the numbers I have in the 50XXX range are 1908 commercials. If it has no grip safety it is a 1908 Commercial. The Erfurt would be on the front toggle and not the chamber.

John Sabato · 08-29-2001, 10:48 AM

Does this mean it is a DWM 1908 commercial that is now a parts gun, with an Erfurt Toggle train?

-John

Johnny Peppers · 08-29-2001, 02:21 PM

John,

Exactly. Without seeing the pistol it is very evident that the pistol is mis-matched with the Erfurt toggle, but other parts may have been changed out also. The serial number of the pistol puts it around 1908/1909.

bill m · 08-29-2001, 02:21 PM

Hi Ted,

You know better than that! 5 digit serial number -- Erfurt marked -- a 1920 commercial??? -- Perhaps it is??? For the sake of a different opinion, why is anything that is mismatched, oddly assembled, and has commercial markings always referred to as a 1920 commercial??? --

Thor · 08-29-2001, 02:22 PM

There are known 1920 Commercials with an Erfurt toggle and they were made from parts, maybe this is one from a previous frame also! Curious! Thor

Thor · 08-29-2001, 02:23 PM

Hi Bill, you know why? CAUSE THAT's what the books say! JUST KIDDING! I knew that would torque your bolts! Thor

bill m · 08-29-2001, 02:51 PM

Hi Ted,

I do not think that there were actually any 1920 commercials with an Erfurt toggle. I see the pictures of the ones in the old books too. As discussed in another thread, it is my opinion that the actual 1920's as most people still refer to them, were of new manufacture. These OTHER guns, with Erfurt toggles and mis-matched parts, were probably, but I'm not positive, some sort of commercial gun. When and where they were assembled and by whom I'm not sure of. I seriously have my doublts that DWM ever sent Lugers to the United States for sale commercially that were made up of junk parts and left overs, and just thrown together. I think this great firm had more pride in there product and workmanship than that, as evidence by the 1920 Commercials and 1923 commercials of new manufacture. So there, what ya think of that? Smiling!

Thor · 08-29-2001, 04:55 PM

Bill!! ........your good, yanno!

Kyrie · 08-29-2001, 06:21 PM

Hi Justin,

Based on the serial number, it sounds like a 1908 Commercial - but there are problems. If the Crown/Erfurt is over the chamber then it was added by someone at some point and the collector value of the pistol was ruined as a result. If the Crown/Erfurt is on the first toggle link, that part is a replacement and again the collector value is ruined. This Luger may or may not be chambered for the 9 mm Luger. It could be chambered for the 7.65 Luger as we know the pistol has been altered in markings or had part of the toggle assembly replaced - other modifications are to be suspected.

The Crown/N markings are commercial proof marks, and would be correct for a 1908 Commercial, or any commercial pistol of that period.

Best regards,

Kyrie

Johnny Peppers · 08-29-2001, 07:57 PM

The serial number, 50465, is no good indication of which model Justin has. The 1906 model was built concurrently with the 1908 up to the 70000 range. The grip safety or lack of grip safety will determine which model it is.

08-30-2001, 01:56 AM

As a trivia point, I had the good luck to view a luger that came in with the dip-blued imports in the mid-1990's. The owner was a gunsmith and had several of the imports for sale. He showed me many common lugers then one Erfurt appeared. It was a commercial with two eagle/N stamps on the right of the receiver. The pistol was mostly matching but the key point is that the major parts including the Erfurt toggle were all matched by s/n as they came from the Eastern Bloc. Closer examination revealed the gun was indeed a commercial gun with Erfurt toggle made sometime after E/N was adopted in 1941. A similar pistol appears in Jan Still's TR Lugers book. I don't know how the Erfurt toggle became a part of this commercial sales gun. It might have been leftover parts or taken from an unservicable firearm and recycled. There was no clear indication of removal of an old s/n.

So, Erfurt may not have made commercials but there are pre-1945 commercials with Erfurt parts out there.

08-29-2001, 09:39 AM	#1
Justin Guest Posts: n/a	Need Help on unknown model Firearm has on chamber a crown ans says Erfurt. In front of it (looking down on gun) it has a n with a small crown looking object. Underneath the barrel, in front of the trigger gaurd there is a number 50465. There is a 65 where the hammer would be located. On the left side of the firearm, just above the disassembly lever, there is two markings just like the N with the crown looking thing. Under the safety, it says Gesichert. I believe it is a 9mm. There are absolutely no other markings Any help would be appreciated.

08-29-2001, 09:45 AM	#2
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Re: Need Help on unknown model My Guess is a 1920 Commercial model. The Erfurt Crown would be on the front toggle link behind the breech block, not on the chamber (over and above where the round is fired) Condition is important feature, please estimate percent remaining bluing, strawing etc! ~Thor~

08-29-2001, 10:01 AM	#3
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Need Help on unknown model If the number 50465 is on the receiver, it is probably either a 1906 or 1908 Commercial. Most of the numbers I have in the 50XXX range are 1908 commercials. If it has no grip safety it is a 1908 Commercial. The Erfurt would be on the front toggle and not the chamber.

08-29-2001, 10:48 AM	#4
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Johnny, I thought Erfurt made only Military Lugers Does this mean it is a DWM 1908 commercial that is now a parts gun, with an Erfurt Toggle train? -John

08-29-2001, 02:21 PM	#5
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Johnny, I thought Erfurt made only Military Lugers John, Exactly. Without seeing the pistol it is very evident that the pistol is mis-matched with the Erfurt toggle, but other parts may have been changed out also. The serial number of the pistol puts it around 1908/1909.

08-29-2001, 02:21 PM	#6
bill m User Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 385 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Need Help on unknown model Hi Ted, You know better than that! 5 digit serial number -- Erfurt marked -- a 1920 commercial??? -- Perhaps it is??? For the sake of a different opinion, why is anything that is mismatched, oddly assembled, and has commercial markings always referred to as a 1920 commercial??? --

08-29-2001, 02:22 PM	#7
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Re: Erfurt Commercial? There are known 1920 Commercials with an Erfurt toggle and they were made from parts, maybe this is one from a previous frame also! Curious! Thor

08-29-2001, 02:23 PM	#8
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Re: Need Help on unknown model Hi Bill, you know why? CAUSE THAT's what the books say! JUST KIDDING! I knew that would torque your bolts! Thor

08-29-2001, 02:51 PM	#9
bill m User Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 385 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Erfurt Commercial? Hi Ted, I do not think that there were actually any 1920 commercials with an Erfurt toggle. I see the pictures of the ones in the old books too. As discussed in another thread, it is my opinion that the actual 1920's as most people still refer to them, were of new manufacture. These OTHER guns, with Erfurt toggles and mis-matched parts, were probably, but I'm not positive, some sort of commercial gun. When and where they were assembled and by whom I'm not sure of. I seriously have my doublts that DWM ever sent Lugers to the United States for sale commercially that were made up of junk parts and left overs, and just thrown together. I think this great firm had more pride in there product and workmanship than that, as evidence by the 1920 Commercials and 1923 commercials of new manufacture. So there, what ya think of that? Smiling!

08-29-2001, 04:55 PM	#10
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Re: Erfurt Commercial? Bill!! ........your good, yanno!

08-29-2001, 06:21 PM	#11
Kyrie User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 757 Thanks: 0 Thanked 212 Times in 101 Posts	Re: Need Help on unknown model Hi Justin, Based on the serial number, it sounds like a 1908 Commercial - but there are problems. If the Crown/Erfurt is over the chamber then it was added by someone at some point and the collector value of the pistol was ruined as a result. If the Crown/Erfurt is on the first toggle link, that part is a replacement and again the collector value is ruined. This Luger may or may not be chambered for the 9 mm Luger. It could be chambered for the 7.65 Luger as we know the pistol has been altered in markings or had part of the toggle assembly replaced - other modifications are to be suspected. The Crown/N markings are commercial proof marks, and would be correct for a 1908 Commercial, or any commercial pistol of that period. Best regards, Kyrie

08-29-2001, 07:57 PM	#12
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Need Help on unknown model The serial number, 50465, is no good indication of which model Justin has. The 1906 model was built concurrently with the 1908 up to the 70000 range. The grip safety or lack of grip safety will determine which model it is.

08-30-2001, 01:56 AM	#13
mlm Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Need Help on unknown model As a trivia point, I had the good luck to view a luger that came in with the dip-blued imports in the mid-1990's. The owner was a gunsmith and had several of the imports for sale. He showed me many common lugers then one Erfurt appeared. It was a commercial with two eagle/N stamps on the right of the receiver. The pistol was mostly matching but the key point is that the major parts including the Erfurt toggle were all matched by s/n as they came from the Eastern Bloc. Closer examination revealed the gun was indeed a commercial gun with Erfurt toggle made sometime after E/N was adopted in 1941. A similar pistol appears in Jan Still's TR Lugers book. I don't know how the Erfurt toggle became a part of this commercial sales gun. It might have been leftover parts or taken from an unservicable firearm and recycled. There was no clear indication of removal of an old s/n. So, Erfurt may not have made commercials but there are pre-1945 commercials with Erfurt parts out there.