Lithuanian Luger query

Dwight Gruber · 11-04-2003, 10:05 PM

A rather uncommon request, but--I'd appreciate being edified on the subject of Lithuanian contract Lugers.

I have seen one (not really examined yet), and recognize the "Gates of Vilnius" stamp on the top of the breech. If I am informed correctly these have "Frankenschloss, Suhl" on the right frame rail and a passel of Eagle/Somethings stamped horizontally on the right frame and receiver.

Is this accurate? What are the figures under the Eagles? Are there any other identifying marks to look for, what proofs should I expect to see? My understanding is that these are all reworks, are they rust blued or salt blued? What caliber are these guns? What are proper magazines and mag markings for these Lugers?

Appreciate very much the time and thought anyone takes to respond.

--Dwight

John Sabato · 11-05-2003, 10:25 AM

Dwight, I haven't got time to rummage my photo collection because of paying work, but I remember that there was at least one and possibly two Lithuanian contract Lugers that were sold by auction at Hermmann-Historica... Visit their website and search the catalogs from Auktion 40 the present day and you should find not only some photographs, but possibly some historical information on the the Lithuanian contracts for these Lugers...

From memory I believe these guns were 9mm not .30 caliber... but don't quote me on that... and I believe I remember that they appeared in "normal" P.08 configuration with 4" barrel...

My memory is balking about whether or not there were any unusual markings.

Doubs · 11-05-2003, 12:11 PM

Dwight, my Frankenschloss Luger has E/N & E/J proofs IAW the 1939 proof laws. They are commercial proofs and would be correct on the Lithuanian Luger if it was reworked by Frankenschloss...... actually, "Franken und Lunenschloss" I believe.

Pete Ebbink · 11-05-2003, 01:01 PM

Hello Dwight,

Ralph Shattuck had a Lith. luger on display at the recent Las Vegas show. I picked it up and do not recall seeing any Franken und Lunenschloss rework markings...

You might want to give him a call with some of yor questions...

During the day, an older fellow stopped by and looked over the luger. He indicated the chamber marking was the crest of the King of Lith. at time of the luger order...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Dwight Gruber · 11-06-2003, 02:39 AM

Guys, thanks for the hints.

John, thanks for the reference, it was a -very- interesting trip, but no Lithuanians...online catalogs only go back to Auction 42, though...

--Dwight

John Sabato · 11-06-2003, 10:56 AM

I will try to find any photos of Lithuanian Lugers that I have that came from that source then Dwight...

I will post them here if I find them.

John Sabato · 11-06-2003, 11:03 AM

Dwight,

Here are the two photos identified by HH as Lithuanian contract in origin... I don't see any special marks in these photos, but perhaps they will help you in some way...

Dwight Gruber · 11-06-2003, 11:27 AM

John,

Thanks much for the pics, they raise more questions than they answer...one is military numbered, one is mostly Commercial numbered. Also, in the top view, there is no evidence of the chamber mark--that mark is big enough that it should be visible in the slight slant view.

Have to keep looking, I guess...

--Dwight

John Sabato · 11-06-2003, 12:03 PM

I can't speak for the chamber marking Dwight, but enlarging and enhancing the contrast of the lower photo has revealed that it is ALSO numbered in the military style...

John Sabato · 11-06-2003, 01:21 PM

Good News Dwight... I have located 4 more photos of what are purported to be Lithuanian Lugers... I have no idea of the original source of these photos. They may have been part of an auction or they may have been emailed to me at some point...

Here they are for you evaluation...

Dwight Gruber · 11-07-2003, 02:02 AM

John,

Excellent, thanks very very much. This answers most of my questions.

--Dwight

Dwight Gruber · 11-22-2003, 01:19 AM

Just a followup on the topic, I had located one of these for sale, but it sold before I could do anything about it. Price was mid-$2k range.

Thanks again for the good information.

--Dwight

drbuster · 11-22-2003, 09:43 AM

Dwight, as a followup to Pete's post above, Ralph Shattuck had that very Lithuanian piece for sale at his table at the recent Reno show. It did not have the Frankenschloss marking on the right side of the frame, as Pete observed. Also, it was sold to a gentleman for over $2K.

Heinz · 11-26-2003, 06:11 PM

Dwight, please check your privat e-mail

11-04-2003, 10:05 PM	#1
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,893 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,288 Times in 426 Posts	Lithuanian Luger query A rather uncommon request, but--I'd appreciate being edified on the subject of Lithuanian contract Lugers. I have seen one (not really examined yet), and recognize the "Gates of Vilnius" stamp on the top of the breech. If I am informed correctly these have "Frankenschloss, Suhl" on the right frame rail and a passel of Eagle/Somethings stamped horizontally on the right frame and receiver. Is this accurate? What are the figures under the Eagles? Are there any other identifying marks to look for, what proofs should I expect to see? My understanding is that these are all reworks, are they rust blued or salt blued? What caliber are these guns? What are proper magazines and mag markings for these Lugers? Appreciate very much the time and thought anyone takes to respond. --Dwight

11-05-2003, 10:25 AM	#2
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Dwight, I haven't got time to rummage my photo collection because of paying work, but I remember that there was at least one and possibly two Lithuanian contract Lugers that were sold by auction at Hermmann-Historica... Visit their website and search the catalogs from Auktion 40 the present day and you should find not only some photographs, but possibly some historical information on the the Lithuanian contracts for these Lugers... From memory I believe these guns were 9mm not .30 caliber... but don't quote me on that... and I believe I remember that they appeared in "normal" P.08 configuration with 4" barrel... My memory is balking about whether or not there were any unusual markings. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

11-06-2003, 10:56 AM	#6
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	I will try to find any photos of Lithuanian Lugers that I have that came from that source then Dwight... I will post them here if I find them. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

11-06-2003, 11:03 AM	#7
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Dwight, Here are the two photos identified by HH as Lithuanian contract in origin... I don't see any special marks in these photos, but perhaps they will help you in some way... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

11-06-2003, 12:03 PM	#9
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	I can't speak for the chamber marking Dwight, but enlarging and enhancing the contrast of the lower photo has revealed that it is ALSO numbered in the military style... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

11-05-2003, 12:11 PM	#3
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,693 Thanks: 789 Thanked 1,671 Times in 548 Posts	Dwight, my Frankenschloss Luger has E/N & E/J proofs IAW the 1939 proof laws. They are commercial proofs and would be correct on the Lithuanian Luger if it was reworked by Frankenschloss...... actually, "Franken und Lunenschloss" I believe.

11-05-2003, 01:01 PM	#4
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Dwight, Ralph Shattuck had a Lith. luger on display at the recent Las Vegas show. I picked it up and do not recall seeing any Franken und Lunenschloss rework markings... You might want to give him a call with some of yor questions... During the day, an older fellow stopped by and looked over the luger. He indicated the chamber marking was the crest of the King of Lith. at time of the luger order... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

11-06-2003, 02:39 AM	#5
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,893 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,288 Times in 426 Posts	Guys, thanks for the hints. John, thanks for the reference, it was a -very- interesting trip, but no Lithuanians...online catalogs only go back to Auction 42, though... --Dwight

11-06-2003, 11:27 AM	#8
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,893 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,288 Times in 426 Posts	John, Thanks much for the pics, they raise more questions than they answer...one is military numbered, one is mostly Commercial numbered. Also, in the top view, there is no evidence of the chamber mark--that mark is big enough that it should be visible in the slight slant view. Have to keep looking, I guess... --Dwight

11-06-2003, 01:21 PM	#10
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Good News Dwight... I have located 4 more photos of what are purported to be Lithuanian Lugers... I have no idea of the original source of these photos. They may have been part of an auction or they may have been emailed to me at some point... Here they are for you evaluation... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

11-07-2003, 02:02 AM	#11
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,893 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,288 Times in 426 Posts	John, Excellent, thanks very very much. This answers most of my questions. --Dwight

11-22-2003, 01:19 AM	#12
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,893 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,288 Times in 426 Posts	Just a followup on the topic, I had located one of these for sale, but it sold before I could do anything about it. Price was mid-$2k range. Thanks again for the good information. --Dwight

11-22-2003, 09:43 AM	#13
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Dwight, as a followup to Pete's post above, Ralph Shattuck had that very Lithuanian piece for sale at his table at the recent Reno show. It did not have the Frankenschloss marking on the right side of the frame, as Pete observed. Also, it was sold to a gentleman for over $2K.

11-26-2003, 06:11 PM	#14
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 410 Times in 180 Posts	Dwight, please check your privat e-mail