Old Family Heirloom

b.goodwin · 09-26-2003, 11:06 AM

b.goodwin · 09-26-2003, 11:12 AM

I posted a text to this, but we were not able to get it to come up with the photo. I also have many more photos of the numbers. How do I post photos and text together? I also have a loader.

Edward Tinker · 09-28-2003, 01:13 PM

Nice pictures so far. To add text just write in the block like you did. If you mean a Word document or such, then you can upload it and put a link here. But it is probably easier for most people to select all the text, copy it and paste it right into this block.

Ed

Doubs · 09-28-2003, 01:21 PM

VERY nice rig and if it has any family history, it should stay in the family and stay complete as you've shown here. The pistol appears to be in outstanding condition too.

mauro · 09-28-2003, 04:11 PM

Nice pictures William,
please have a look at my web LP08 web site maybe you can find some interesting informations.
Ciao

Ron Wood · 09-28-2003, 08:51 PM

Wow! That is a great artillery...100% original and in beautiful conditon. You have a treasure.

Pete Ebbink · 09-28-2003, 09:23 PM

1916 DWM artillery with an Erfurt-proofed barrel...

Do we know what year DWM started proofing their own barrels ?

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

John Sabato · 09-29-2003, 10:49 AM

To the best of my knowledge... Erfurt made ALL the artillery barrels Pete... even the ones used by DWM...

I don't know if DWM proofed the barrels they installed...

and Mr. Goodwin... that is one OUTSTANDING Artillery Luger... please preserve it for posterity and don't shoot it.

Ron Wood · 09-29-2003, 11:37 AM

John,
There is some evidence that DWM made some of their own artillery barrels. They have the DWM style acceptance proof and the machining of the rear sight block is slightly different than the Erfurt. The transition from the lower cylindrical portion to the sight base is more gradual without the pronounced edge you can see on an Erfurt. Wish I had a picture, but I don't.

Pete Ebbink · 09-29-2003, 12:48 PM

Here are a couple of shots of the barrel on my 1918 DWM artillery....

Cannot be sure who made the barrel, but I think it does have DWM proofing and not Erfurt proofing...

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/artyproof2a.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/artyproof2a.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/artyproof3a.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/artyproof3a.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Ron Wood · 09-29-2003, 02:04 PM

Thanks Pete. With these photos and Bill's, I think I can illustrate what I was trying to describe.

John Sabato · 09-29-2003, 02:20 PM

Excellent Photography Pete...

by the way Pete... I find it very interesting that the last two digits of the cannon serial number of my 1914 Erfurt "frankenartillery" shooter is also "67"... the frame is "1327a"

Ron, does the presence of the DWM firing proof mean that DWM manufactured the barrel? Is there any other information that leads you to believe this? I don't recall reading that anyone but Erfurt made these barrels... Of course there are lots of things I don't remember anymore

Thanks,

Big Norm · 09-29-2003, 02:50 PM

In John Walters book pg 151, there is a nice write up on scheduled production of artillery Lugers in 1913. Early schedules were high for production at Erfurt. I suspect that Erfurt anticipated larger production than actually occured and manufactured more than they eventually needed. When production was shifted to DWM, a pallet of barrels was probably loaded on a truck and sent to the final manufacturer at DWM. A crate of barrels really isn't that big. These Erfurt barrels may have been already proofed before shipping. Just speculation on my part.
Big Norm

Ron Wood · 09-29-2003, 03:14 PM

John,

I don't know if DWM actually manufactured artillery barrels or not. I think they did because of the firing proof and the difference in machining. I would like to have these two artillerys side by side to look for other machining differences, perhaps in the front sight block, under the rear sight,etc. I would not be surprised that after Erfurt ceased production of artillery models, they also cut back on production of artillery barrels due to the press of producing other arms and armament, leaving DWM to make up additional barrels to meet demands.

Other than the nearly ubiquitous presence of Erfurt proofs on artillery barrels, I do not know of any documentation that positively states Erfurt was the sole producer. I think that the notion of exclusive production of artillery barrels by Erfurt grew out of the preponderance of evidence rather than documented records.

Dwight Gruber · 09-30-2003, 12:22 AM

Ron,

I once did a comparison and posted it on Jan Still's forum of barrels on one Erfurt and two DWM LP-08s at hand. The post is gone, and I no longer have one of the comparison guns, but I recall that the DWM barrels both had the smooth transition, and that their barrel band/front sight machining were much more alike to each other than to the Erfurt; one DWM barrel had the DWM proof, one had Erfurt.

The strange LP-barrelled Commercial I have has the smooth DWM transition and DWM barrel band machining, with no markings on the barrel whatsoever except for Germany.

Wouldn't a completed Erfurt LP-08 barrel most likely have a tiny Erfurt inspector stamp?

--Dwight

Ron Wood · 09-30-2003, 12:39 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Wouldn't a completed Erfurt LP-08 barrel most likely have a tiny Erfurt inspector stamp? <hr /></blockquote>Dwight,

I wouldn't think so, unless it was on an Erfurt LP08. Since I don't have one of those, I can't say for sure.

Dwight Gruber · 09-30-2003, 01:49 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Ron Wood:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr /> Wouldn't a completed Erfurt LP-08 barrel most likely have a tiny Erfurt inspector stamp? <hr /></blockquote>Dwight,

I wouldn't think so, unless it was on an Erfurt LP08. Since I don't have one of those, I can't say for sure.<hr /></blockquote>The pistol marking instructions require the "Barrel, finished: 3.2mm high inspector's mark." (GÃ?Â¶rtz & Bryans, p.111) This is found on the left side of an Erfurt LP-08 barrel, on my example the mark is stamped under the blue. The power proof, serial#, barrel gage, and barrel half of the witness mark are stamped through the blue, with halo (the witness mark is one stamp/one instrument, offset almost immeasurably).

The corresponding marks on my 1917 LP-08 are also stamped through the blue; it appears that the receiver half of the (perfect) witness mark may be through the blue, as well.

The question, I suppose, is what is meant by "finished". Obviously it is before the barrel is blued, and I would have to suspect that any shipment of barrels sent to DWM would have to be certified as "finished".

The other strange thing to keep in mind is that these Erfurt stamps on DWM LPs are power proof, and would not have been stamped until -after- the pistol was completely assembled and fired.

I'm not quite sure what to make of all this.

And Ron, you -really- don't have an Erfurt LP-08? I'm surprised!

--Dwight

b.goodwin · 09-30-2003, 10:52 AM

this rig was brought back by my grandfather at the end of ww2. i also have the paper work issued by european theater commanders office allowing this to legally come to this country. i have added the snall drum magazine and loader so it would be complete. i have no intention of selling it, as my grandfather handed it down to my dad, and i intend to one day hand it down to my son. i thought you might like to see it that why i posted the photos. i have more photos if you would like to see them.

John Sabato · 09-30-2003, 11:21 AM

b.goodwin,

Please do post those photos... they are always welcome and make a great learning tool for the new folks.

b.goodwin · 09-30-2003, 01:16 PM

New Photos!

09-26-2003, 11:06 AM	#1
b.goodwin User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: michigan Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Old Family Heirloom <a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/arty-01.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/arty-01.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> <a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/arty-04.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/arty-04.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> <a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/arty-05.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/arty-05.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> <a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/arty-06.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/arty-06.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> <a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/arty-07.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/arty-07.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> <a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/arty-08.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/arty-08.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> <a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/arty-09.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/arty-09.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> <a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/arty-10.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/arty-10.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

09-28-2003, 01:13 PM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	Nice pictures so far. To add text just write in the block like you did. If you mean a Word document or such, then you can upload it and put a link here. But it is probably easier for most people to select all the text, copy it and paste it right into this block. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

09-28-2003, 04:11 PM	#5
mauro FIREARM HISTORIAN AND AUT Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 1,535 Thanks: 106 Thanked 349 Times in 129 Posts	Nice pictures William, please have a look at my web LP08 web site maybe you can find some interesting informations. Ciao __________________ Mauro Baudino - www.lugerlp08.com www.paul-mauser-archive.com Mauser Company and Firearm Historian - Mauser Parabellum Certification Service.

09-28-2003, 08:51 PM	#6
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	Wow! That is a great artillery...100% original and in beautiful conditon. You have a treasure. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

09-29-2003, 10:49 AM	#8
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	To the best of my knowledge... Erfurt made ALL the artillery barrels Pete... even the ones used by DWM... I don't know if DWM proofed the barrels they installed... and Mr. Goodwin... that is one OUTSTANDING Artillery Luger... please preserve it for posterity and don't shoot it. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

09-26-2003, 11:12 AM	#2
b.goodwin User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: michigan Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I posted a text to this, but we were not able to get it to come up with the photo. I also have many more photos of the numbers. How do I post photos and text together? I also have a loader.

09-28-2003, 01:21 PM	#4
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,670 Thanks: 769 Thanked 1,611 Times in 525 Posts	VERY nice rig and if it has any family history, it should stay in the family and stay complete as you've shown here. The pistol appears to be in outstanding condition too.

09-28-2003, 09:23 PM	#7
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	1916 DWM artillery with an Erfurt-proofed barrel... Do we know what year DWM started proofing their own barrels ? Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

09-29-2003, 11:37 AM	#9
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	John, There is some evidence that DWM made some of their own artillery barrels. They have the DWM style acceptance proof and the machining of the rear sight block is slightly different than the Erfurt. The transition from the lower cylindrical portion to the sight base is more gradual without the pronounced edge you can see on an Erfurt. Wish I had a picture, but I don't. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

09-29-2003, 12:48 PM	#10
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Here are a couple of shots of the barrel on my 1918 DWM artillery.... Cannot be sure who made the barrel, but I think it does have DWM proofing and not Erfurt proofing... <a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/artyproof2a.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/artyproof2a.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> <a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/artyproof3a.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/artyproof3a.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

09-29-2003, 02:04 PM	#11
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	Thanks Pete. With these photos and Bill's, I think I can illustrate what I was trying to describe. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

09-29-2003, 02:20 PM	#12
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Excellent Photography Pete... by the way Pete... I find it very interesting that the last two digits of the cannon serial number of my 1914 Erfurt "frankenartillery" shooter is also "67"... the frame is "1327a" Ron, does the presence of the DWM firing proof mean that DWM manufactured the barrel? Is there any other information that leads you to believe this? I don't recall reading that anyone but Erfurt made these barrels... Of course there are lots of things I don't remember anymore Thanks, __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

09-29-2003, 02:50 PM	#13
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	In John Walters book pg 151, there is a nice write up on scheduled production of artillery Lugers in 1913. Early schedules were high for production at Erfurt. I suspect that Erfurt anticipated larger production than actually occured and manufactured more than they eventually needed. When production was shifted to DWM, a pallet of barrels was probably loaded on a truck and sent to the final manufacturer at DWM. A crate of barrels really isn't that big. These Erfurt barrels may have been already proofed before shipping. Just speculation on my part. Big Norm

09-29-2003, 03:14 PM	#14
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	John, I don't know if DWM actually manufactured artillery barrels or not. I think they did because of the firing proof and the difference in machining. I would like to have these two artillerys side by side to look for other machining differences, perhaps in the front sight block, under the rear sight,etc. I would not be surprised that after Erfurt ceased production of artillery models, they also cut back on production of artillery barrels due to the press of producing other arms and armament, leaving DWM to make up additional barrels to meet demands. Other than the nearly ubiquitous presence of Erfurt proofs on artillery barrels, I do not know of any documentation that positively states Erfurt was the sole producer. I think that the notion of exclusive production of artillery barrels by Erfurt grew out of the preponderance of evidence rather than documented records. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

09-30-2003, 12:22 AM	#15
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,889 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,281 Times in 423 Posts	Ron, I once did a comparison and posted it on Jan Still's forum of barrels on one Erfurt and two DWM LP-08s at hand. The post is gone, and I no longer have one of the comparison guns, but I recall that the DWM barrels both had the smooth transition, and that their barrel band/front sight machining were much more alike to each other than to the Erfurt; one DWM barrel had the DWM proof, one had Erfurt. The strange LP-barrelled Commercial I have has the smooth DWM transition and DWM barrel band machining, with no markings on the barrel whatsoever except for Germany. Wouldn't a completed Erfurt LP-08 barrel most likely have a tiny Erfurt inspector stamp? --Dwight

09-30-2003, 12:39 AM	#16
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"> Wouldn't a completed Erfurt LP-08 barrel most likely have a tiny Erfurt inspector stamp? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Dwight, I wouldn't think so, unless it was on an Erfurt LP08. Since I don't have one of those, I can't say for sure. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

09-30-2003, 01:49 AM	#17
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,889 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,281 Times in 423 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Ron Wood: <strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"> Wouldn't a completed Erfurt LP-08 barrel most likely have a tiny Erfurt inspector stamp? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Dwight, I wouldn't think so, unless it was on an Erfurt LP08. Since I don't have one of those, I can't say for sure.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">The pistol marking instructions require the "Barrel, finished: 3.2mm high inspector's mark." (GÃ?Â¶rtz & Bryans, p.111) This is found on the left side of an Erfurt LP-08 barrel, on my example the mark is stamped under the blue. The power proof, serial#, barrel gage, and barrel half of the witness mark are stamped through the blue, with halo (the witness mark is one stamp/one instrument, offset almost immeasurably). The corresponding marks on my 1917 LP-08 are also stamped through the blue; it appears that the receiver half of the (perfect) witness mark may be through the blue, as well. The question, I suppose, is what is meant by "finished". Obviously it is before the barrel is blued, and I would have to suspect that any shipment of barrels sent to DWM would have to be certified as "finished". The other strange thing to keep in mind is that these Erfurt stamps on DWM LPs are power proof, and would not have been stamped until -after- the pistol was completely assembled and fired. I'm not quite sure what to make of all this. And Ron, you -really- don't have an Erfurt LP-08? I'm surprised! --Dwight

09-30-2003, 10:52 AM	#18
b.goodwin User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: michigan Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	this rig was brought back by my grandfather at the end of ww2. i also have the paper work issued by european theater commanders office allowing this to legally come to this country. i have added the snall drum magazine and loader so it would be complete. i have no intention of selling it, as my grandfather handed it down to my dad, and i intend to one day hand it down to my son. i thought you might like to see it that why i posted the photos. i have more photos if you would like to see them.

09-30-2003, 11:21 AM	#19
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	b.goodwin, Please do post those photos... they are always welcome and make a great learning tool for the new folks. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

09-30-2003, 01:16 PM	#20
b.goodwin User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: michigan Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	New Photos!