1917 Artillery at SimpsonLtd - Page 2

DonVoigt · 06-24-2015, 10:47 PM

S'allee,
you wrote:
"To those who feel the 1917 Artillery at SimpsonLtd is over-priced, please provide the reasons for your conclusion. Is it just a gut reaction?
I have provided my analysis. Quid Pro Quo. "

That must be me, since I'm the only one who thinks it was high, other than you since you admit in your post it is at the "high end" of retail.

Your analysis :

"I think that a 1917 DWM all matching including the magazine and grips would be in the 4k range. (I am assuming Excellent condition: 98%).
Add in a matching stock and same year brown holster that is in good condition with an Imperial tool and cleaning rod, 6K.
Add in a black 9 on the matching grips, 7K.
Add in retailer profit, 9-10K.

My analysis:
basic price with matching stock - $4k ( I bought one within the last 2 months for this price) similar condition
Rig: add $2500
Black Nine: ? controversial marking IMO, value- something , but not $1000, maybe $200
Total: $ 6,700 at face to face retail, IMO.

Auction or online- whatever the seller wants to ask, or two
bidders want to bid.

So, there is my analysis and opinion. So elegantly proven wrong by the fact that the pistol sold

, at some price likely near that asked, but we don't know the price for sure....

Could I find a rig like that every day at $6,700- no, it might take a year; but that does not
mean anything other than I am patient and the buyer was not.

Could be a couple reasons for the quick sale;
1- Collector needed the Black Nine to complete what he considered a type set of Art'ys.
2- Collector had another with consecutive number !
3- Collector makes over $1 million a year and $10k gets lost in rounding his income!

I do enjoy the discussion and value all opinions.

You may call me Don and don't hesitate to speak up if you think I am wrong, or have a wrong headed opinion. I won't promise to change my opinion, but then neither do you.

CAP Black · 06-24-2015, 10:51 PM

This Jack didn't purchase the C96 stock. I wouldn't have known that it was for a flat side. Also didn't like the leather and it would have taken my confidence down on the stock.
I am not in the habit of searching Simpson's for stock but now I shall.
thanks
Jack

DavidJayUden · 06-24-2015, 11:06 PM

Not me...

Sieger · 06-25-2015, 02:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by siegersallee

To those who feel the 1917 Artillery at SimpsonLtd is over-priced, please provide the reasons for your conclusion. Is it just a gut reaction?
I have provided my analysis. Quid Pro Quo.

Hi,

Regarding the price issue, for me, at least, a Luger isn't a true collectible unless it has a mint bore.

I know that many collectors don't agree with me, but you did ask the question.

Sieger

siegersallee · 06-25-2015, 06:22 AM

Quote:

That must be me, since I'm the only one who thinks it was high, other than you since you admit in your post it is at the "high end" of retail.

Don, this was not directed at you at all. Others here said that the ask was out of line with what was offered.

But, and this is directed at you, I am glad that you gave more details on how you came to your conclusion and I do much appreciate your very positive attitude.

On so many forums, disagreements turn into childish, playground melodrama. Here we all seem to be gentlemen trying to understand opposing points of view and carefully consider opposing data without grand-standing.

Quote:

So elegantly proven wrong by the fact that the pistol sold

Here, I will disagree with you. Despite the appearance of an objective algorithm to determine value, and regardless of what Economists might say, "value" is in the eyes of the beholder. Though, the market puts a value on something based upon comps which are used by the seller to arrive at an asking price, what an individual buyer *will* pay is highly subjective.

Your perception of value is yours, highly personal, and, as you rightfully point out, the buyer's decision to purchase may be motivated by some highly personal objectives:

Quote:

1- Collector needed the Black Nine to complete what he considered a type set of Art'ys.
2- Collector had another with consecutive number !
3- Collector makes over $1 million a year and $10k gets lost in rounding his income!

The only objective facts here are:
-The pistol was offered at almost 10K.
-The offering consisted of an all-matching 1917 Arty with matched stock, brown holster with straps intact, an imperial marked tool, and an original cleaning rod. The condition is advertised as excellent.
-The pistol sold quickly.
-The sell says that the valuation, by the buyer, was in-line with the price.
-The advertised price will be used in future valuations of offerings that are similar.

Good thinking on your part.

Richard

alvin · 06-25-2015, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sieger

unless it has a mint bore

Probably for Artillery Luger, requiring that is not too luxury. Not sure Luger's situation, but many Red 9 Mauser come with mint bore. When many collectible samples of a specific variation have mint bore, requiring a mint bore on that variation is not unrealistic. Especially when considerable amount of $$ is paid.

So, return to the bottom of this, it is still related with how hard it comes, and its relative position in the group of the same variation (top, upper, middle, lower),,, and, on collectors side -- current collection structure, current financial situation, etc. There are many non-linear factors. So, again and again, we saw top pistols go crazy in auctions, that's typical non-linear behavior.

sheepherder · 06-25-2015, 07:30 AM

BTW, there is another factor in collecting, whether guns or anything with a 'serial'.

There are those who collect only certain serials. True! Rich person of course, but with Lugers, there is more chance of getting great shape serialized item than with say a motorcycle.

Back in 1998, I owned a rare Harley-Davidson motorcycle. I knew it was rare and collectible so I advertised it in Hemmings. I got a half-dozen calls from that ad, one guy wanted rare color combination, but weirdest was guy wanting certain serial number. I was wary, but he rattled off the number he was looking for, and mine was not it. He went on to explain that he collected one of each model Harley but only with that serial number...Weird, but true collectors are weird...

(He gave me his name, and it wasn't Jay Leno)...

alvin · 06-25-2015, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepherder

There are those who collect only certain serials. True!

Sounds like those rich in Hong Kong collecting car plates... regular people cannot care less on that aluminum plate, let alone the numbers on them. But who could expect there were bidders paying big money on those plates with certain number in auctions... weird enough, but that's on newspaper.

alanint · 06-25-2015, 08:03 AM

The Chinese place a lot of stock in "lucky numbers", so Asian millionaires have no trouble bidding ridiculous amounts for the right numbered license plate, phone number, etc.

TheRomanhistorian · 06-26-2015, 12:35 PM

I think it's quite an interesting thing when it comes to collecting and people have their niches. I'm a Roman historian by training and a professor by day but I have a quiet hobby involving WWI memorabilia and things from that period (trench watches and British army issue pocket watches with broad arrow markings). So, my handgun collection is about 70% WWI pistols with 1920s/30s Broomhandles and a Webley and Scott shotgun and some PPKs. I think the Artillery Luger in question was certainly nice and well worth what Don suggested for the price though I think the 10k was not out of reason (though too rich for a history professor's budget) and most of my collection was acquired at under $1,500 per example (I've gotten lucky with several shooter Lugers recently at $500-$800 locally).

That said, though I'm a collector, I suspect I'm not in the same league as many others here in seeking the 'collectible' high end pistols. My collection is super idiosyncratic in that I wanted Imperial Lugers from every year of the war and my 'new' shooters are a Mauser/Interarms and two WWII era Lugers. Even my Russian Capture WWI Luger is far more interesting though not really 'collectible' due to its condition and a mismatched number here and there. Then I had to get a Webley revolver for as many years of the war as I could find (plus the semi-auto variants). For me, the collection is about getting representative items from each major combatant on the Western Front (Britain, France, Germany, Russia, Austria-Hungary, Italy, and the USA. Now to expand and get Turkey and maybe Japan) but, for me, 90% strawing or finish was a bonus rather than something I sought. Which means my collection will probably not merit much to members here or to my future children (as yet unconcieved and unborn) who will find dear old dad's collection is pretty average, at best! But I think that idiosyncrasy can play with 'value' quite a lot, as Doug and Rich both suggest.

So, at times, I've paid above the reasonable price not because it was that valuable but because I needed it to fit the niche in my collection! I don't have more money than sense, alas, but those damned compulsions! Like Rich hinted at in his example about certain serials.

For me, even chromed weapons are collectible in the sense that I need representative examples of WWI handguns from the major powers (Turkey is the only one I am missing). I wouldn't pay $1400 for a chromed Roth Steyr M1907 but I did win a chromed one on Gunbroker for $695 and the chrome tells of an interesting story after it's WWI and perhaps WWII usage. So, as a historian, I would have paid more than the shooter price of $695 if I had to (though there was a nice one belonging to the 2nd Hussar Regiment which I fancied but I think it was $1500 and I'd like the savings to go towards my trip to Europe for my archaeology dig!) but I'm glad I didn't need to this time...

So, just my tuppence on value being somewhat subjective though that was a nice Artillery indeed.

alvin · 06-26-2015, 07:13 PM

Joe Schroeder summarized a "gun collector's philosophy" list. He has guns of various kinds of condition, from .. I would say 0.1%, to mint ones. I will copy his words here. He could summarize thing out well, that's a special capability.

1) If collecting for investment, collect condition; if collecting for knowledge, collect everything that pertains;

2) Rare junk is still junk, so when collecting for knowledge don't spend high for a marginal example.

--- comment: people can do both. He did both. No need to stuck on one collecting pattern. Some guns for investment, some for knowledge, why not.

3) When offered something unique that fits your collection, buy it. You can always figure out how to pay for it later. ... but you can't expect to find rare goodies when you can afford them. --- comment: looks like big name collector has this advantage, there are some sellers contact him before public sale...

4) Don't follow the herd. It's a lot more rewarding to be one who puts the knowledge of a particular gun or gun maker together than it is to follow someone else's well beaten path. --- comment: how about Norinco 213 in avatar...

5) Never interrupt another's deal. You might be happy to buy a gun at twice the price being discussed, but until the potential buyer puts the gun back on the table, gun how etiquette says it is his. Acting otherwise may get you a good gun cheap... but along with it a reputation that will cost you dearly. ----- comment: the context of this must be collector's show or something.

6) Whenever you buy a gun, buy a gun book. Without knowledge you're not really a collector, just a gatherer. --- comment: even not collect a gun, buy a gun book. Book price is usually nothing comparing with gun.

7) Buy a good camera, and learn how to take decent gun pictures with it. --- comment: this cannot be simpler now, but not in 1970s.

8) Maintain an up-to-date inventory, with current values of your entire collection. It's good protection, and if anything ever happens to you, it will keep the vultures from stealing your wife blind. --- comment: just need to tell spouse RIAC, Julia, Amoskeag, etc. Without help, most likely she does not know how to list guns for sale anyway.

..... there are many more items, but most important ones are these.

pilch303 · 06-26-2015, 08:56 PM

Alvin! I like point 8 about making an inventory.......I just started mine a few days ago. I was concerned that if I kick the bucket and shuffle of this mortal coil what I was going to leave my wife to sort out. To many times I have seen dealers rip widows off because the widow doesn't know what she has in a collection.

Also, My 2 cents worth regarding the arty luger in question, I think it was on the money......had it not been it wouldn't have sold. Probably the only thing that let it down was barrel condition.

06-24-2015, 10:47 PM	#21
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,677 Thanks: 1,439 Thanked 4,347 Times in 2,038 Posts	S'allee, you wrote: "To those who feel the 1917 Artillery at SimpsonLtd is over-priced, please provide the reasons for your conclusion. Is it just a gut reaction? I have provided my analysis. Quid Pro Quo. " That must be me, since I'm the only one who thinks it was high, other than you since you admit in your post it is at the "high end" of retail. Your analysis : "I think that a 1917 DWM all matching including the magazine and grips would be in the 4k range. (I am assuming Excellent condition: 98%). Add in a matching stock and same year brown holster that is in good condition with an Imperial tool and cleaning rod, 6K. Add in a black 9 on the matching grips, 7K. Add in retailer profit, 9-10K. My analysis: basic price with matching stock - $4k ( I bought one within the last 2 months for this price) similar condition Rig: add $2500 Black Nine: ? controversial marking IMO, value- something , but not $1000, maybe $200 Total: $ 6,700 at face to face retail, IMO. Auction or online- whatever the seller wants to ask, or two bidders want to bid. So, there is my analysis and opinion. So elegantly proven wrong by the fact that the pistol sold, at some price likely near that asked, but we don't know the price for sure.... Could I find a rig like that every day at $6,700- no, it might take a year; but that does not mean anything other than I am patient and the buyer was not. Could be a couple reasons for the quick sale; 1- Collector needed the Black Nine to complete what he considered a type set of Art'ys. 2- Collector had another with consecutive number ! 3- Collector makes over $1 million a year and $10k gets lost in rounding his income! I do enjoy the discussion and value all opinions. You may call me Don and don't hesitate to speak up if you think I am wrong, or have a wrong headed opinion. I won't promise to change my opinion, but then neither do you.

06-25-2015, 07:30 AM	#27
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,181 Thanks: 1,398 Thanked 4,438 Times in 2,327 Posts	BTW, there is another factor in collecting, whether guns or anything with a 'serial'. There are those who collect only certain serials. True! Rich person of course, but with Lugers, there is more chance of getting great shape serialized item than with say a motorcycle. Back in 1998, I owned a rare Harley-Davidson motorcycle. I knew it was rare and collectible so I advertised it in Hemmings. I got a half-dozen calls from that ad, one guy wanted rare color combination, but weirdest was guy wanting certain serial number. I was wary, but he rattled off the number he was looking for, and mine was not it. He went on to explain that he collected one of each model Harley but only with that serial number...Weird, but true collectors are weird... (He gave me his name, and it *wasn't* Jay Leno)... __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

06-26-2015, 12:35 PM	#30
TheRomanhistorian User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 301 Thanks: 170 Thanked 88 Times in 64 Posts	I think it's quite an interesting thing when it comes to collecting and people have their niches. I'm a Roman historian by training and a professor by day but I have a quiet hobby involving WWI memorabilia and things from that period (trench watches and British army issue pocket watches with broad arrow markings). So, my handgun collection is about 70% WWI pistols with 1920s/30s Broomhandles and a Webley and Scott shotgun and some PPKs. I think the Artillery Luger in question was certainly nice and well worth what Don suggested for the price though I think the 10k was not out of reason (though too rich for a history professor's budget) and most of my collection was acquired at under $1,500 per example (I've gotten lucky with several shooter Lugers recently at $500-$800 locally). That said, though I'm a collector, I suspect I'm not in the same league as many others here in seeking the 'collectible' high end pistols. My collection is super idiosyncratic in that I wanted Imperial Lugers from every year of the war and my 'new' shooters are a Mauser/Interarms and two WWII era Lugers. Even my Russian Capture WWI Luger is far more interesting though not really 'collectible' due to its condition and a mismatched number here and there. Then I had to get a Webley revolver for as many years of the war as I could find (plus the semi-auto variants). For me, the collection is about getting representative items from each major combatant on the Western Front (Britain, France, Germany, Russia, Austria-Hungary, Italy, and the USA. Now to expand and get Turkey and maybe Japan) but, for me, 90% strawing or finish was a bonus rather than something I sought. Which means my collection will probably not merit much to members here or to my future children (as yet unconcieved and unborn) who will find dear old dad's collection is pretty average, at best! But I think that idiosyncrasy can play with 'value' quite a lot, as Doug and Rich both suggest. So, at times, I've paid above the reasonable price not because it was that valuable but because I needed it to fit the niche in my collection! I don't have more money than sense, alas, but those damned compulsions! Like Rich hinted at in his example about certain serials. For me, even chromed weapons are collectible in the sense that I need representative examples of WWI handguns from the major powers (Turkey is the only one I am missing). I wouldn't pay $1400 for a chromed Roth Steyr M1907 but I did win a chromed one on Gunbroker for $695 and the chrome tells of an interesting story after it's WWI and perhaps WWII usage. So, as a historian, I would have paid more than the shooter price of $695 if I had to (though there was a nice one belonging to the 2nd Hussar Regiment which I fancied but I think it was $1500 and I'd like the savings to go towards my trip to Europe for my archaeology dig!) but I'm glad I didn't need to this time... So, just my tuppence on value being somewhat subjective though that was a nice Artillery indeed. __________________ Michael Nos morituri te salutant - Supposed saying of the gladiators to the emperor ('We, who are about to die, salute you.') 'We are the lantern bearers, my friend; for us to keep something burning, to carry what light we can forward into the darkness and the wind' - From Rosemary Sutcliff's The Lantern Bearers

06-24-2015, 10:51 PM	#22
CAP Black User Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Fairmont, WV Right here in Mountaineer country and God's country Posts: 767 Thanks: 100 Thanked 168 Times in 96 Posts	This Jack didn't purchase the C96 stock. I wouldn't have known that it was for a flat side. Also didn't like the leather and it would have taken my confidence down on the stock. I am not in the habit of searching Simpson's for stock but now I shall. thanks Jack

06-24-2015, 11:06 PM	#23
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Not me...

06-25-2015, 08:03 AM	#29
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	The Chinese place a lot of stock in "lucky numbers", so Asian millionaires have no trouble bidding ridiculous amounts for the right numbered license plate, phone number, etc.

06-26-2015, 07:13 PM	#31
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Joe Schroeder summarized a "gun collector's philosophy" list. He has guns of various kinds of condition, from .. I would say 0.1%, to mint ones. I will copy his words here. He could summarize thing out well, that's a special capability. 1) If collecting for investment, collect condition; if collecting for knowledge, collect everything that pertains; 2) Rare junk is still junk, so when collecting for knowledge don't spend high for a marginal example. --- comment: people can do both. He did both. No need to stuck on one collecting pattern. Some guns for investment, some for knowledge, why not. 3) When offered something unique that fits your collection, buy it. You can always figure out how to pay for it later. ... but you can't expect to find rare goodies when you can afford them. --- comment: looks like big name collector has this advantage, there are some sellers contact him before public sale... 4) Don't follow the herd. It's a lot more rewarding to be one who puts the knowledge of a particular gun or gun maker together than it is to follow someone else's well beaten path. --- comment: how about Norinco 213 in avatar... 5) Never interrupt another's deal. You might be happy to buy a gun at twice the price being discussed, but until the potential buyer puts the gun back on the table, gun how etiquette says it is his. Acting otherwise may get you a good gun cheap... but along with it a reputation that will cost you dearly. ----- comment: the context of this must be collector's show or something. 6) Whenever you buy a gun, buy a gun book. Without knowledge you're not really a collector, just a gatherer. --- comment: even not collect a gun, buy a gun book. Book price is usually nothing comparing with gun. 7) Buy a good camera, and learn how to take decent gun pictures with it. --- comment: this cannot be simpler now, but not in 1970s. 8) Maintain an up-to-date inventory, with current values of your entire collection. It's good protection, and if anything ever happens to you, it will keep the vultures from stealing your wife blind. --- comment: just need to tell spouse RIAC, Julia, Amoskeag, etc. Without help, most likely she does not know how to list guns for sale anyway. ..... there are many more items, but most important ones are these.

06-26-2015, 08:56 PM	#32
pilch303 User Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 7 Thanks: 15 Thanked 11 Times in 1 Post	Alvin! I like point 8 about making an inventory.......I just started mine a few days ago. I was concerned that if I kick the bucket and shuffle of this mortal coil what I was going to leave my wife to sort out. To many times I have seen dealers rip widows off because the widow doesn't know what she has in a collection. Also, My 2 cents worth regarding the arty luger in question, I think it was on the money......had it not been it wouldn't have sold. Probably the only thing that let it down was barrel condition.