1917 DWM Luger, Artillery style xx62e - Page 2

jimisbell · 10-05-2012, 03:10 PM

OK, I have read this thread from start to finish. Confusing, but I think I have gleaned the information I need. However to make sure I am not misinterpreting it I will state what I see and see if it causes any commotion:

1) I own a 1918 Erfurt P08 4.5" barrel that has the "lug" on the back of the grip.

2) Having stated the above, I read this thread to say that I can now own a stock, EVEN a REPRODUCTION, that could be fitted to my 1918 Erfurt pistol without fear of the ATF busting down my door. Correct??

3) I dont have to, but I could also fit a long barrel (8")?

I AM an FFL (07) so more than just my door is at stake here, my livelihood as a licensed gunsmith is also at stake. NO, I do not have any SOTs...yet...

alanint · 10-05-2012, 04:16 PM

Fitting ANY kind of stock to your pistol would make it an Illegal SBR, (Short Barreled Rifle). Adding a long barrel could make it legal, but it would have to be 16" long, not 8". The deal is that although you may use a reproduction stock to complete an "authentic" Naval or Artillery rig, you CANNOT fake the pistol to look like a Navy or Artillery, unless ALL the pistols components are period and correct. As an example, if you had an 8" Navy style barrel but not the correct back sight, etc. you might be in violation. My belief is that the pistol itself must be a period piece and correct example of a pistol which was once issued with a stock. This is a hazy area that I would not want to push ATF on.

Ron Wood · 10-05-2012, 04:22 PM

Not correct. You may not own a stock and a short barreled Luger unless you also own another Luger that is the correct type for the stock.

Lets say that you only have your 1918 Erfurt and you buy a LP08 or Navy stock, repro or original, you now own the components of a short barreled rifle under BATFE rules. It doesn't matter if you never actually attach the stock, you have established "probable intent".

DavidJayUden · 10-05-2012, 05:56 PM

Far be it for me to try to explain the bureaucratic mindset, but imagine law enforcement personnel getting word that a certain culprit is possessing or shooting a machine gun. You get there and he/she has a stock AR-15, but also has, stored nearby but not together, a drop-in auto sear and various M16 parts. Using this ruling you can bust him. Or her.
It all seems a bit more convoluted when discussing a WW1 Luger, however.
dju

mrerick · 10-05-2012, 06:19 PM

David,

You are correct. Possession of the components of a class III weapon constitutes intent according to the ATF. It doesn't matter if they are assembled together into a select fire weapon.

So, in our case, as Ron, Doug and others have confirmed, you must have the completely correct and appropriate Luger in order to have the specifically associated stock. The purpose of the exemption is to allow collectors to have historically correct examples of firearms.

Artillery model + Artillery Stock (original or reproduction) - OK
Navy model + Navy Stock (original or reproduction) - OK
There are a few other recently authorized combinations.

Possession of an Artillery stock without a complete Artillery Luger, but with any other Luger that has a stock lug - Not OK.

Possession of a Navy stock without a complete Navy Luger, but with any other Luger that has a stock lug - Not OK.

Etc...

There probably are stranger things in the regulations.

Marc

lugerholsterrepair · 10-05-2012, 06:47 PM

OK then..Let's say you have a dozen Artillery stocks and only a half dozen Artillery Lugers..From what I am reading you could have the dozen stocks and only have to have at least one Artillery pistol?

DavidJayUden · 10-05-2012, 09:18 PM

You know there are funny little cubicle dwellers with very thick glasses deep in the bowels of the BATF who could answer that one. But I certainly can not.
Anyone?
dju

cdmech · 10-05-2012, 09:21 PM

Wait! What if I have a 4" Luger, a piece of steel, a file, a drill, a tree in my backyard, an axe, a saw, some sandpaper and varnish? Is that okay?
Marc

lugerholsterrepair · 10-05-2012, 09:50 PM

Rich.."Dont try to stop me from bein a MAN!" Betcha can't name the movie that's a quote from!

Marc..technically I bet there could be a case where charges could be made exactly along those lines...

cdmech · 10-05-2012, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by postino

That does it. I'm bidding on a repro arty stock.

I think this statement could be construed as "intent". Be careful!
Marc

cdmech · 10-05-2012, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lugerholsterrepair

Marc..technically I bet there could be a case where charges could be made exactly along those lines...

All it takes nowadays to be a criminal is one encounter with a government official having a bad hair day.
Marc

lugerholsterrepair · 10-05-2012, 10:32 PM

Like the "tar baby'" it's best not to encounter it..and deffinately do not touch it!

Ron Wood · 10-06-2012, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lugerholsterrepair

OK then..Let's say you have a dozen Artillery stocks and only a half dozen Artillery Lugers..From what I am reading you could have the dozen stocks and only have to have at least one Artillery pistol?

Absolutely. All you need is one. (Sounds something like a Beatles song, doesn't it...All your need is love

)

alanint · 10-06-2012, 07:51 AM

Ron is correct. As long as you have one correct pistol, you can own as many correct stocks for that pistol you want.
Another example; as long as I own a registered, full auto M16, I can own as many internal full auto part sets and short AR/M16 barrels that I want. But if I only owned a registered AR15 SBR, I could own all the short barrels I want, but NOT the full auto internals.

ithacaartist · 10-06-2012, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

... it is the possession of a stock without having a correct corresponding Luger if you also own any Luger(s) for which the stock is not correct. It is the improper combination of stock and gun that is illegal, not the stock per se. You have to have a gun that is correct for the stock to qualify for the exemption if you own other Lugers that do not qualify…period.

Is this still true if the non-correct Luger has no stock lug--meaning that it could not be physically combined? I'd think this would not support a claim of constructive intent, and be legal.

alanint · 10-06-2012, 02:44 PM

I would agree with this. If there is no readily available method of attaching the stock to a pistol, then you would be ok, i.e. a pre 1913 Luger and a stock. I would not think that ATF would pursue a situation like this.

jimisbell · 10-11-2012, 10:25 PM

The BATFE will not pursue any situation which does not forward an agenda. But if you have pissed off someone at BATFE or above, they might pursue ANY situation that would at the very minimum, harass you.

Best dont piss anyone off and you wont be bothered.

Of course I don't take that advice, being a leader of the TEA Party movement in this area. So, the obverse of that coin is, I keep my nose clean....always....

10-05-2012, 04:16 PM	#22
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Fitting ANY kind of stock to your pistol would make it an Illegal SBR, (Short Barreled Rifle). Adding a long barrel could make it legal, but it would have to be 16" long, not 8". The deal is that although you may use a reproduction stock to complete an "authentic" Naval or Artillery rig, you CANNOT fake the pistol to look like a Navy or Artillery, unless ALL the pistols components are period and correct. As an example, if you had an 8" Navy style barrel but not the correct back sight, etc. you might be in violation. My belief is that the pistol itself must be a period piece and correct example of a pistol which was once issued with a stock. This is a hazy area that I would not want to push ATF on. Last edited by alanint; 10-05-2012 at 09:11 PM.

10-05-2012, 04:22 PM	#23
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	Not correct. You may not own a stock and a short barreled Luger unless you also own another Luger that is the correct type for the stock. Lets say that you only have your 1918 Erfurt and you buy a LP08 or Navy stock, repro or original, you now own the components of a short barreled rifle under BATFE rules. It doesn't matter if you never actually attach the stock, you have established "probable intent". __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

10-05-2012, 06:19 PM	#25
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,370 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	David, You are correct. Possession of the components of a class III weapon constitutes intent according to the ATF. It doesn't matter if they are assembled together into a select fire weapon. So, in our case, as Ron, Doug and others have confirmed, you must have the completely correct and appropriate Luger in order to have the specifically associated stock. The purpose of the exemption is to allow collectors to have historically correct examples of firearms. Artillery model + Artillery Stock (original or reproduction) - OK Navy model + Navy Stock (original or reproduction) - OK There are a few other recently authorized combinations. Possession of an Artillery stock without a complete Artillery Luger, but with any other Luger that has a stock lug - Not OK. Possession of a Navy stock without a complete Navy Luger, but with any other Luger that has a stock lug - Not OK. Etc... There probably are stranger things in the regulations. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

10-05-2012, 06:47 PM	#26
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,760 Thanks: 4,848 Thanked 3,099 Times in 1,426 Posts	OK then..Let's say you have a dozen Artillery stocks and only a half dozen Artillery Lugers..From what I am reading you could have the dozen stocks and only have to have at least one Artillery pistol? __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

10-05-2012, 09:50 PM	#29
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,760 Thanks: 4,848 Thanked 3,099 Times in 1,426 Posts	Rich.."Dont try to stop me from bein a MAN!" Betcha can't name the movie that's a quote from! Marc..technically I bet there could be a case where charges could be made exactly along those lines... __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

10-05-2012, 03:10 PM	#21
jimisbell User Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	OK, I have read this thread from start to finish. Confusing, but I think I have gleaned the information I need. However to make sure I am not misinterpreting it I will state what I see and see if it causes any commotion: 1) I own a 1918 Erfurt P08 4.5" barrel that has the "lug" on the back of the grip. 2) Having stated the above, I read this thread to say that I can now own a stock, EVEN a REPRODUCTION, that could be fitted to my 1918 Erfurt pistol without fear of the ATF busting down my door. Correct?? 3) I dont have to, but I could also fit a long barrel (8")? I AM an FFL (07) so more than just my door is at stake here, my livelihood as a licensed gunsmith is also at stake. NO, I do not have any SOTs...yet...

10-05-2012, 05:56 PM	#24
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Far be it for me to try to explain the bureaucratic mindset, but imagine law enforcement personnel getting word that a certain culprit is possessing or shooting a machine gun. You get there and he/she has a stock AR-15, but also has, stored nearby but not together, a drop-in auto sear and various M16 parts. Using this ruling you can bust him. Or her. It all seems a bit more convoluted when discussing a WW1 Luger, however. dju

10-05-2012, 09:18 PM	#27
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	You know there are funny little cubicle dwellers with very thick glasses deep in the bowels of the BATF who could answer that one. But I certainly can not. Anyone? dju

10-05-2012, 09:21 PM	#28
cdmech User Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 218 Thanks: 87 Thanked 134 Times in 55 Posts	Wait! What if I have a 4" Luger, a piece of steel, a file, a drill, a tree in my backyard, an axe, a saw, some sandpaper and varnish? Is that okay? Marc

10-05-2012, 10:32 PM	#32
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,760 Thanks: 4,848 Thanked 3,099 Times in 1,426 Posts	Like the "tar baby'" it's best not to encounter it..and deffinately do not touch it! __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

10-06-2012, 07:51 AM	#34
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Ron is correct. As long as you have one correct pistol, you can own as many correct stocks for that pistol you want. Another example; as long as I own a registered, full auto M16, I can own as many internal full auto part sets and short AR/M16 barrels that I want. But if I only owned a registered AR15 SBR, I could own all the short barrels I want, but NOT the full auto internals.

10-06-2012, 02:44 PM	#36
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	I would agree with this. If there is no readily available method of attaching the stock to a pistol, then you would be ok, i.e. a pre 1913 Luger and a stock. I would not think that ATF would pursue a situation like this.

10-11-2012, 10:25 PM	#37
jimisbell User Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The BATFE will not pursue any situation which does not forward an agenda. But if you have pissed off someone at BATFE or above, they might pursue ANY situation that would at the very minimum, harass you. Best dont piss anyone off and you wont be bothered. Of course I don't take that advice, being a leader of the TEA Party movement in this area. So, the obverse of that coin is, I keep my nose clean....always....