Artillery Luger photo

[DavidJayUden]

I noticed this on E-bay. FYI.
DJU

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...3AIT&viewitem=

[George Anderson]

Cool photo. Not often you see a period photo of a field grade officer toting an LP08.

[Ron Smith]

Geo,

Did You or Mauro win it?

Ron

[mauro]

Ron,
I have not parteciped to the bid. The picture is really nice indeed.

Have fun,
Mauro

[drbuster]

I wonder at the age of this officer, what with his carrying a cane and wearing skin tight leather gloves.

[George Anderson]

[QUOTE=Ron Smith;158838]Geo,

Did You or Mauro win it?

yes

[Ron Smith]

Cool!!!

[Vlim]

Nice,

The way he carries his LP08 is interesting. He wears his normal belt over the LP08 loops. This means he is unable to attach the holster/stock to the pistol quickly this way. But looking at his somewhat dated (and thickish) head, I think he's not too much of a front line soldier

[Ron Wood]

Gerben,
If you look closely, you will notice that he does not even have a stock with his rig.

[Vlim]

Oh, what a poser that guy was. A stockless LP08 is hardly worth the effort. It shoots worse than a regular P08

[George Anderson]

Originally Posted by Vlim

Nice,

The way he carries his LP08 is interesting. He wears his normal belt over the LP08 loops. This means he is unable to attach the holster/stock to the pistol quickly this way. But looking at his somewhat dated (and thickish) head, I think he's not too much of a front line soldier

LP08's were often secured under the belt as in this photo but with stock attached. It is much more comfortable walking if the belt secures the rig to ones side. I think that stocks were rarely attached to the pistol as a last minute combat expediency but rather well before encounters with the enemy were anticipated.

[Vlim]

I did some experimenting with a Stocked artillery and complete rig last year. One of the 'exercises' was to do some normal range work while carrying the rig (which was an interesting sight in its self).

I found that the rig is pretty comfortable to wear and doesn't get into the way during work as much as one would expect. I also found that it's quite easy to get the pistol out, attach it to the rigged stock and prepare for firing. The holster serves as nice padding as a bonus.

The whole rig is actually pretty user friendly.

[lugerholsterrepair]

Doc, I wonder at the age of this officer, what with his carrying a cane and wearing skin tight leather gloves.

I have looked at many photo's of German Officers and the gloves & cane were quite common among them. I believe they were badges of rank.

Gerben is right on the money. The Artillery IS user Friendly and a devastating weapon with the stock. Without the stock the pistol is a bit awkward. The 6" Navy is much better without the stock than the Artillery and deadly with the stock.

The Artrillery worn the way this Officer is wearing it was quite popular after the war during Weimar.

Jerry Burney

[Big Norm]

I agree with George. Getting the stock out of the irons cup is difficult and would be real difficult during the excitement of an engagement. I have difficulty doing it while sitting at my computer table with an adult beverage near at hand. Maybe thats why its so difficult to find original cups for the stocks iron. Solders probably just threw it away.

Jerry,
maybe the skin tight gloves were more useful in quickly adjusting the binoculars that this officer is also carrying. But they would be cold in bad weather.
Big Norm

[Vlim]

Hi,

I doubt that, at least during WW1, German soldiers dared to modify their equipment without strict orders or written permission. Personal initiative was not considered to be a good thing in the German military (it still isn't in most European armies ).

The cup is suspended on a feeble piece of leather that will break or rot off after years of bad storage, I guess that is the main reason for so many of them getting lost. Getting the cup off, the pistol out and the stock in place takes less than half a minute, but you are right that they would have stocked the pistols some time before the real action began, not in the heat of the battle (no time to reach for the pistol anyway, hence the old shovel, stick, dagger, shoe, etc..).

[mauro]

Dear all,
Let me add a point to the discussion about the use of the Arty with and without stock during WWI.

We have to clarify that there is a big difference between the use of the Arty done by the Artillery and machine gun soldiers and the one done by the Sturmtruppen – infantry elite unit.

When we speak about Artillery and Machine gun units, the LP08 is used as a replacement of a standard carbine, to protect the soldiers busy with the machine gun, the mortar and the artillery weapon.


When on 23 October 1916, General Ludendorff ordered all German armies in the west to form a battalion of Sturmtruppen a new era started.
The Sturmtruppen are an infantry elite unit that invented modern infantry tactics. They use a combination of weapons. A specific gun is now considered as an element in an array of mutually complementary weapons. We have also to recall that the introduction of the TM08 is actually for the infantry troops (Sturmtruppen) mainly on the west front.
The use of the arty + TM08 done by the Sturmtruppen is completely different from the one done by the Artillery soldiers.

When “cleaning” the French trenches they don’t need precision (Arty + Stock) but they need a big “volume of fire” (Arty + TM, without stock - it can only disturb in a close combat).
I have in my collection of pictures several Sturmtruppen with Arty and two or three TM08 in the belt (without TM holster in addition – it is faster carry the TM directly in the belt). The TM08 where used and then left “on the field”, this is why it is so common to find TM08 in the Verdun and Somme trenches.

The Sturmtruppen were allowed to “personalize” the uniform. Men who has served with the Strumtruppen when back to the original unit, returned with a different uniform and different tactical ideas.

To sum up, the LP08 is a really “flexible” gun that can be used in different operational scenarios with or without stock; this is why I like so much this gun.

Have fun,
Mauro

[Big Norm]

Vlim,
I don't think that you understand he horrific conditions that soldier in WW1 fought under. I agree that tactics changed on both sides of the battle fields starting in 1916 when both sides of the battle fields were literally running out of bodies to send into battle and mutinies in all the armies were increasing.

But in 1914-1915, fighting was horrific. Adolf Hitler got his first taste of heroism when he was one of eleven men from his company to survive a large battle that he was in. What was a company in those days? Maybe 200-300 men. More than 180-250,000 men on each of the two sides were casualties in those few days. (I thing it was Verdon, but I'm not certain). Thats maybe about a half a million human beings. And that was only one of the many battles fought. In those days, tens of thousands and, sometimes, hundreds of thousands of men would lose their lives in the matter of a few days.

When a large artillery shell had a direct hit on a trench, the goal was to rapidly repair the damage. Sacks were quickly filled with sand, mud , stone and human body parts. The body parts were not separated from the other muck that was thrown in those bags. The work was frequently done while under fire from the enemy. The men doing that work were pretty thick skinned about death and they had to work fast for their own survival.

Then there were the long foot marches from one battle field to another, sometimes with out much food or clean cloths. American soldiers only had one fatigue uniform. Equipment not considered essential by the individual soldier was frequently tossed. After all, they could always salvage more off of dead solders on the battle field that they were going to.

Now, with that in mind, if you see a couple of thousand enemy soldiers marching toward your position with bayonets on their rifles and machine gun bullets flying all around you, do you really think that the individual soldier is worried about whether or not he has written permission to individualize his equipment? Or do you think that that half a minute or more to remove that stock cup on a holster that he found in an over run machine gun nest was a lifetime on or near a battlefield? Remember, you have a bolt action rifle and a semi auto pistol and all of them will be empty before you engage in hand to hand to hand combat and your rifle becomes a club.

As a side note to "individualizing" equipment. Many American soldiers that fought after D-day during WW2 fought in hot summer weather. They customized their boots by cutting the tips of their boots off, which made them cooler. Many didn't have a chance to replace their boots just before the "Battle of the Bulge", which was fought during the winter. As a result, many men were taken out of action because their feet were frost bitten.

I could recommend any number of books regarding the terrible conditions that solders fought under in WW1. Its little wonder that many soldiers never thought that they would ever come out of it alive.
Big Norm

[Vlim]

Norm,

Thank you but I am very, very well aware of the WW1 fighting conditions. I also have pretty decent understanding of the structure and habits of the major European armies.

In turn, however, you have to understand that during the conflicts of WW1 and WW2 the Americans were the exception to the rules. The US hands on approach was (and still is) viewed with a certain level of amazement and scepticism by the Europeans. I remember from my own service time that anytime we were about to bend the rules a bit equipment wise one of the officers would remind us that we were not Americans

Furthermore WW1 war ethics cannot be compared to those of WW2. It was a different era altogether and private initiative was not encouraged, recommended or even tolerated on the German side.

The German strive for rules, regulations, permissions, hierarchic levels and the lack of initiative and responsibility that results from it probably helped to shorten both wars.

So any stories about 'German field modifications' should be taken with a grain of salt here and there. Usually they are stories that are invented to explain away defects or other devalueing specifics of collectibles

Mauro is correct that the LP08 has been designed for a specific purpose and that with time it saw action in different circumstances. But most (if not all) of these arguments have little to do with the photograph this discussion started with. Old fatty on the Photo (which probably dates from the Weimar era) wears his LP08 more as a status symbol (of rank), and not as an effective side arm.

[mauro]

Vlim, for sure this fatty guy is far to be an example of elite infantry soldier.

I just add my point to clarify that a stockless LP08 has his tactical justification in the West front perspective where the Sturmtruppen, during close combat in the trenches, were more interested in the volume of fire than in the precision. This is why is quite common to see pictures of infantry soldiers wearing a LP08 w/o stock and also why it is common to find holsters modified to be carryed in the belt.

But you are right nothing to do with the fatty soldier in the photo.

Cheers,
Mauro

[Big Norm]

Vlim and Mauro,
I enjoyed reading your posts. Thanks for posting. Yes, I was thinking more, but not entirely, of American soldiers. I remember someone once talking about the Americans and our BAR rifles. The Americans would shoot off a magazine and, when it was empty, just throw the magazine away. Then when they went to get some more ammunition, they found that the ammunition came loose in crates but the wasn't any more magazines for the BAR. So I assume that the BAR rifles were then useless.

Vlim, you may be good at it, but I sometimes struggle to get that stock cup off of the stock. Maybe thats because I am trying very hard not to damage it.

I have numerous audio tapes about WW1 that I listen to while deer hunting in Northern Michigan and I can't help but wonder how those poor soldiers fought that war in the way that they did. Right now, I am thinking of one battle where the British bombarded a German position for days. Then, thinking that nobody could live through a bombardment like that, The British ordered their infantry to attack at half pace.

Well, the Germans knew that the bombardment was coming and pulled back before it started. When the bombardment ended, they went back to their positions. Over 43,000 British soldiers died in a matter of hours. I just can't believe that soldiers thought that they could possibly live through the war.

Then there was a German general on the Eastern front who had a reputation for disobeying orders. He had a French sounding name that I can't remember right now. When the Russians sent two armies toward Germany, this general was a long way away from where he was supposed to be. But he was in perfect position to attack the Russian first army. He virtually annihilated the Russian first army. The Russian second army was forced to retreat.

An interesting side note is that the Russian general of the first army went into the forest and committed suicide when he realized that his army was destroyed. Later, that generals wife received permission from the German general staff to safely go to the battle area to retrieve her husbands body for proper burial in Russia. Yes, that was a different sort of war.

I am sorry that I cannot document better what I just said and I can only give approximations. I hunt in rain, snow and sleet and it is impossible to write notes about what I hear on the audio tapes. The purpose of listening to these audio tapes is to help me forget how cold I am while hunting and to keep me awake while I sit totally bored for hours when no deer come by.
Big Norm