Black Widow Questions...?

03-23-2002, 08:14 PM

Would appreciate some help :

1. Are the small parts on '41 or'42 bfy Black Widow lugers always blue and not straw colored ?

2. Would original BW grips have serial numbers on the inside surfaces of the black grips (either full number or last two digits) ?

3. Did the '41 or '42 byf Commericals come with strawed small parts ?

Saw a '41 byf BW here in California with strawed parts (lwhich look original at 50-60%). Have not had a chance to ask the Owner to remove the grips, yet...

Saw John Sabato's BW in the Owner's Corner, but I think I recall that is a restoration pistol...

Thanks in advance for your help...

Thor · 03-23-2002, 08:19 PM

Commercial byfs did have strawed parts, quite a controversy if they were real or not! Saw a reference in Kenyons book, very very rare. Black Widows are always black, hence the name. Dont know about #2. Thor

Lonnie Zimmerman · 03-23-2002, 08:48 PM

question #2 is no.

Lonnie

Frank · 03-23-2002, 11:15 PM

Pete, regarding the Kalifornia BW. Run as fast as you can away from that one.

The BW, that were built that way from Mauser started around the U-Block of 1941. Anything after that could be a BW or a non-BW. That is either bakelite or wood grips and with fxo magazines with plastic or aluminum bottoms. If aluminum, it is rare to find them serial numbered after the Z-Block in 1941.

03-24-2002, 03:24 PM

Hello Frank,

Thanks for the good advise.

When I first saw this, I knew enough to know that real BW's did not normally have strawed parts.

I was hoping what I saw was a more rare '41 bfy commerical with strawed parts, that somewhere along the way got BW grips added. I recalled reading this happened alot when the original wooden grips were broken...

Got a chance to see the gun again, and some of the strawed small parts' numbers do not match the main serial number of the gun. So it looks like quite a parts gun...

The asking price was also too high for a shooter buy at $ 1,100...but someone did buy it at the end of the second day...

Frank · 03-24-2002, 03:46 PM

I sure feel sorry for the person that got took. I do hope he enjoys his new pistol!

03-24-2002, 05:40 PM

And now for my entry into the grand foolish buy of the year:

Farm auction in NW Iowa two weeks ago. The elderly couple was moving from farm to town (a tradition in Iowa) and the husband picked up a luger while in Germany back in the war. Surprisingly, he did not take it off a dead SS general but rather picked it up at a factory (his words but just what kind of factory nobody knows--perhaps a guard's pistol or somesuch). It was a common commercial 23DWM and was in a nice holster with extra magazine (naval, curiously). At the auction, several luger-knowledgable buyers and dealers bid the rig up to $900 then stopped. Two people, though, continued bidding. One older farmer, locally famous for buying up farms and paying twice what anyone else will pay, continued bidding as did a young son of a successful farmer. The young farmer, in his 20s, bid against the old farmer until the price hit $1800 and the young farmer won the "prize". After the auction, someone spoke with the young farmer's mother and asked about his buying the luger. She said her son asked a buddy of his what the luger was worth and the buddy told him it could be worth up to $3000.

The moral: Do your homework or at least be careful who you ask for advice before making an auction bid.

An identical rig was available at the same time, albeit in separates, from commercial firms on the web for about $700.

dm

tracyp · 03-24-2002, 07:24 PM

Frank, where does your information come from that they started using plastic grips in the u block? According to Still, they even had them in 41-42 code, which was before Mauser change to the byf code. On page 77 of "Third Reich Lugers" he has an example with a serial number of 3562n.

Frank · 03-24-2002, 10:54 PM

tracyp, I am aware of the Still reference. Krieghoff began using the Mauser Plastic (bakelite) grips sometime in the 1940 time frame. The Army (Heer) authorized the Mauser Grips, I believe in the May - June 1941 time frame. Check back about a year ago to get the discussion. Both the 41 code 42 and the 41 byf started production with the N-Block in 1941. After authorization which would have been around the S or T Blocks, one would expect a slight delay before incorporation, thus around the U-Block.

Then why do you find these grips on other Lugers? Because they were changed either as field repairs or because someone thought they looked nicer. Or even worse, because "Black Widows" bring a premium price (for some reason unknown to me).

03-23-2002, 08:14 PM	#1
Wm. "Pete" Ebbink Guest Posts: n/a	Black Widow Questions...? Would appreciate some help : 1. Are the small parts on '41 or'42 bfy Black Widow lugers always blue and not straw colored ? 2. Would original BW grips have serial numbers on the inside surfaces of the black grips (either full number or last two digits) ? 3. Did the '41 or '42 byf Commericals come with strawed small parts ? Saw a '41 byf BW here in California with strawed parts (lwhich look original at 50-60%). Have not had a chance to ask the Owner to remove the grips, yet... Saw John Sabato's BW in the Owner's Corner, but I think I recall that is a restoration pistol... Thanks in advance for your help...

03-23-2002, 08:48 PM	#3
Lonnie Zimmerman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 523 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Black Widow Questions...? question #2 is no. Lonnie

03-23-2002, 11:15 PM	#4
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	Re: Black Widow Questions...? Pete, regarding the Kalifornia BW. Run as fast as you can away from that one. The BW, that were built that way from Mauser started around the U-Block of 1941. Anything after that could be a BW or a non-BW. That is either bakelite or wood grips and with fxo magazines with plastic or aluminum bottoms. If aluminum, it is rare to find them serial numbered after the Z-Block in 1941.

03-24-2002, 03:24 PM	#5
Wm. "Pete" Ebbink Guest Posts: n/a	Just Hoping... Hello Frank, Thanks for the good advise. When I first saw this, I knew enough to know that real BW's did not normally have strawed parts. I was hoping what I saw was a more rare '41 bfy commerical with strawed parts, that somewhere along the way got BW grips added. I recalled reading this happened alot when the original wooden grips were broken... Got a chance to see the gun again, and some of the strawed small parts' numbers do not match the main serial number of the gun. So it looks like quite a parts gun... The asking price was also too high for a shooter buy at $ 1,100...but someone did buy it at the end of the second day...

03-24-2002, 03:46 PM	#6
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	How sad I sure feel sorry for the person that got took. I do hope he enjoys his new pistol!

03-23-2002, 08:19 PM	#2
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Re: Black Widow Questions...? Commercial byfs did have strawed parts, quite a controversy if they were real or not! Saw a reference in Kenyons book, very very rare. Black Widows are always black, hence the name. Dont know about #2. Thor

03-24-2002, 05:40 PM	#7
mlm Guest Posts: n/a	Why knowledge is valuable And now for my entry into the grand foolish buy of the year: Farm auction in NW Iowa two weeks ago. The elderly couple was moving from farm to town (a tradition in Iowa) and the husband picked up a luger while in Germany back in the war. Surprisingly, he did not take it off a dead SS general but rather picked it up at a factory (his words but just what kind of factory nobody knows--perhaps a guard's pistol or somesuch). It was a common commercial 23DWM and was in a nice holster with extra magazine (naval, curiously). At the auction, several luger-knowledgable buyers and dealers bid the rig up to $900 then stopped. Two people, though, continued bidding. One older farmer, locally famous for buying up farms and paying twice what anyone else will pay, continued bidding as did a young son of a successful farmer. The young farmer, in his 20s, bid against the old farmer until the price hit $1800 and the young farmer won the "prize". After the auction, someone spoke with the young farmer's mother and asked about his buying the luger. She said her son asked a buddy of his what the luger was worth and the buddy told him it could be worth up to $3000. The moral: Do your homework or at least be careful who you ask for advice before making an auction bid. An identical rig was available at the same time, albeit in separates, from commercial firms on the web for about $700. dm

03-24-2002, 07:24 PM	#8
tracyp User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Peoples Republic of Kalifornia Posts: 391 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Re: Black Widow Questions...? Frank, where does your information come from that they started using plastic grips in the u block? According to Still, they even had them in 41-42 code, which was before Mauser change to the byf code. On page 77 of "Third Reich Lugers" he has an example with a serial number of 3562n.

03-24-2002, 10:54 PM	#9
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	Re: Black Widow Questions...? tracyp, I am aware of the Still reference. Krieghoff began using the Mauser Plastic (bakelite) grips sometime in the 1940 time frame. The Army (Heer) authorized the Mauser Grips, I believe in the May - June 1941 time frame. Check back about a year ago to get the discussion. Both the 41 code 42 and the 41 byf started production with the N-Block in 1941. After authorization which would have been around the S or T Blocks, one would expect a slight delay before incorporation, thus around the U-Block. Then why do you find these grips on other Lugers? Because they were changed either as field repairs or because someone thought they looked nicer. Or even worse, because "Black Widows" bring a premium price (for some reason unknown to me).