mismatch pattern

PatrickB · 03-17-2013, 07:59 PM

A few years ago a bought a 1917 artillary in very good condition from a seemingly knowledgeable collector. The barrel, slide and all other upper components and the side plate were matching to each other. The frame and all other lower components were matching to each other. However, the frame and barrel number are different. The frame number is 1323d which may be 1916 rather than 1917. The barrel number is 3757g (I think it is a g but it is so stylized I'm not sure).

This fellow told me that the guns for a group of soldiers were often cleaned together and the upper assemblies and lower assemblies could become switched when many guns were disasembled and reassembled on the same table.

Is this pattern of upper and lower mismatch common? I guess there may be another artillary out there with the opposite mismatch.

CJS57 · 03-17-2013, 09:14 PM

I see top half, bottom half guns like that all the time. But I don't know for sure how they came to be like that. I could also be that 2 damaged guns were put together to make 1 good one.

alanint · 03-18-2013, 09:23 AM

Most collectors call this a "campfire switch" and occured just as you describe. Early Colt SAA revolvers are often found with a mismatched cylinder, usually very close in serial numbers.

George Anderson · 03-18-2013, 09:49 AM

The frame may have been seperated from the upper, etc from the due to government dictate. I recently bought an entire upper with side plate from Canada where the frame had been destroyed.

PatrickB · 03-18-2013, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanint

Most collectors call this a "campfire switch" and occured just as you describe. Early Colt SAA revolvers are often found with a mismatched cylinder, usually very close in serial numbers.

Thanks for letting me know this configuration is common enough to have its own name. Both halves are in really good original condition so I didn't think each was salvaged from a damaged gun.

Is the serial number of the frame, 1323d, consistent with 1917 or is it too early?

mrerick · 03-18-2013, 05:05 PM

For legal purposes, use the serial number (including the suffix) stamped on the frame in front of and above the trigger guard.

I also have a Luger that was fitted from two pistols. The top half (receiver, cannon and toggle train) from one gun and the bottom half (frame) from another. I also have a P.38 that was assembled this way with arsenal marks.

The fit of these parts on a Luger was rather precision, as was the fit of the trigger plate. I suspect that this was not done casually without proper tools and experience.

Handguns were certainly damaged during combat and other usage. Remember that the Germans wasted nothing.

Marc

Edward Tinker · 03-18-2013, 07:02 PM

I have owned at least two lugers like this, to include one of my first two, a 1940/42 - top half matched and bottom matched.

I like the two soldiers sitting around cleaning their new souvenirs story the best and accidentally swapped them, sounds perfectly logical to me.

Just as believable and probably more common is the importer, dealer or even armorer getting one good gun out of two guns that had something wrong with them

Ed

ithacaartist · 03-18-2013, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrerick

The fit of these parts on a Luger was rather precision, as was the fit of the trigger plate. I suspect that this was not done casually without proper tools and experience.Marc

More true when fiddling with the toggle train, I can see two pistols with totally swapped uppers working fine, as the uppers would maintain headspace in a complete swap. But, as you suggest, the setup of the trigger bar inside the sedeplate might make a difference...

D.P.

03-17-2013, 07:59 PM	#1
PatrickB User Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Virginia Posts: 26 Thanks: 2 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts	mismatch pattern A few years ago a bought a 1917 artillary in very good condition from a seemingly knowledgeable collector. The barrel, slide and all other upper components and the side plate were matching to each other. The frame and all other lower components were matching to each other. However, the frame and barrel number are different. The frame number is 1323d which may be 1916 rather than 1917. The barrel number is 3757g (I think it is a g but it is so stylized I'm not sure). This fellow told me that the guns for a group of soldiers were often cleaned together and the upper assemblies and lower assemblies could become switched when many guns were disasembled and reassembled on the same table. Is this pattern of upper and lower mismatch common? I guess there may be another artillary out there with the opposite mismatch.

03-18-2013, 05:05 PM	#6
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,370 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	For legal purposes, use the serial number (including the suffix) stamped on the frame in front of and above the trigger guard. I also have a Luger that was fitted from two pistols. The top half (receiver, cannon and toggle train) from one gun and the bottom half (frame) from another. I also have a P.38 that was assembled this way with arsenal marks. The fit of these parts on a Luger was rather precision, as was the fit of the trigger plate. I suspect that this was not done casually without proper tools and experience. Handguns were certainly damaged during combat and other usage. Remember that the Germans wasted nothing. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

03-18-2013, 07:02 PM	#7
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	I have owned at least two lugers like this, to include one of my first two, a 1940/42 - top half matched and bottom matched. I like the two soldiers sitting around cleaning their new souvenirs story the best and accidentally swapped them, sounds perfectly logical to me. Just as believable and probably more common is the importer, dealer or even armorer getting one good gun out of two guns that had something wrong with them Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

03-17-2013, 09:14 PM	#2
CJS57 User Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 224 Thanks: 0 Thanked 81 Times in 41 Posts	I see top half, bottom half guns like that all the time. But I don't know for sure how they came to be like that. I could also be that 2 damaged guns were put together to make 1 good one.

03-18-2013, 09:23 AM	#3
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Most collectors call this a "campfire switch" and occured just as you describe. Early Colt SAA revolvers are often found with a mismatched cylinder, usually very close in serial numbers.

03-18-2013, 09:49 AM	#4
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,769 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	The frame may have been seperated from the upper, etc from the due to government dictate. I recently bought an entire upper with side plate from Canada where the frame had been destroyed.