History help 1916 Luger

34SF · 11-07-2015, 01:42 PM

I am trying to help a neighbor who owns this Luger. I had intended to send this out for an appraisal by one of the commercial experts but after talking with them, it appears that the gun's value is more sentimental than monetary and the cost of the appraisal would add little to the story of the gun. Not to mention the cost of reclaiming the gun through Brady and transfer fees.

I've been able to piece together some some history but I would prefer to have a more experienced perspective rather than my guess work. I have built a presentation box for this gun and would like to include a narrative that explains the marks. I believe this gun has gone through two wars and has story.

The photos below show the serial and proofs. There is almost no "straw" left on anything and the gun is working but reflects its age. The "31" from the serial appears on all the small parts and the grips but I could only find the "F" on one grip.

If this is not the right place for this, any advice would be appreciated.

tomaustin · 11-07-2015, 04:53 PM

it is a football Saturday....hang-on , help is coming...........

DavidJayUden · 11-07-2015, 06:12 PM

Well, it was a DWM WW1 gun originally, later stamped as gov't property (1920). The book guys will tell you what the unit markings SDI represents, but that little stamp over the 9 in 1920 has my eye.
Photos of the entire gun may help us access value, but be patient, those markings will be explained, or at least debated to death, a bit later.
Markings withstanding, and given the photos, I'll guestimate $1200-$1500 for retail value, but that is admittedly way premature here.
dju

roadkill1 · 11-07-2015, 06:54 PM

The marking on this front grip strap of "S.D.I. 905." is from the Dusseldorf Municipal Police District, Section I, pistol #905. The reference for this identification is from German Small Arms Markings, by Gortz and Bryans, Chapter V, Police Unit Markings, pp. 93-96.

Ron

34SF · 11-07-2015, 08:10 PM

Gents, thank you for the info thus far and it is exactly what I need. The value is in the contextual history and I'd really like to tell the story of this gun when I return it to him. I'll put to together tomorrow and take a complete picture as well as a better image of the mark under the 1920. Thank you again.

DonVoigt · 11-07-2015, 08:42 PM

The mark "under" the 1920 is a crown/ G; a known acceptance mark for pistols taken into police service in the Weimar era.

alvin · 11-07-2015, 09:57 PM

Saw three double dates today: a relatively rare 1920/1920 sold $840, a 1910/1920 sold $750 (looks being original on pictures), and a 1918/1920 sold $780. Short on cash these days, otherwise they could be great.

DonVoigt · 11-08-2015, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepherder

A police pistol should have the 'Schiwy sear safety' or the remains of one. Let your pic show the left side where the sear bar is. What few pics shown do not indicate a magazine safety.

Police Lugers are always cool, especially if taken into (or from) army service.

True on the cool part!

Not all police lugers have the sear safety, those used by the
"barracked police" in Prussia did not have to have the safety added, at least not until 1937 or so when Himmler ordered all police pistols to hvet the sear safety.

Bavarian and Saxon(and a couple other states) pistols may also be without, again until 1937;though some would have had them added late.

Subject to correction by Don M. or Ed T, or Dwight G., they are the experts on Police lugers.

34SF · 11-08-2015, 05:30 PM

Additional pictures as requested.

34SF · 11-09-2015, 01:49 PM

The crown-G mark under the 1920 is proving hard to identify. It is dissimilar to the crown G proof mark in the FAB and elsewhere and I'm not finding this mark elsewhere in the references. Can you elaborate? Is it in conjuction with the 1920 mark?

DonVoigt · 11-09-2015, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 34SF

I'm not finding this mark elsewhere in the references. Can you elaborate? Is it in conjuction with the 1920 mark?

If it is the C/G you are asking about:

The crown/G is only found on some early lugers taken into police use. It is not related to the 1920 marking, but is an inspection or
acceptance mark applied by the police.

It is shown in Police Lugers by Tinker and Gruber and in Jan Still's
Weimar luger; discussion is minimal, and not much is known about the who, where, when, the C/G was applied.

Don M · 11-09-2015, 03:28 PM

I'll add what I can to the above.

My research strongly suggests that the I in the police property marking S.D.I.905. indicated the gun belonged to the Schupo command in Essen. This marking is in accordance with marking instructions issued in 1932.

As mentioned, the 1920 stamp indicates the gun had been re-issued to the police by that date. The front grip strap shows evidence (remnant periods) that an earlier marking was ground off before the current one was applied. This was probably a marking for the same police unit but conforming to instructions issued in 1922.

The pistol definitely did not have a Walther (mag) safety added and one of the photos seems to show that there is no Schiwy (sear) safety. As stated above, this indicates the gun was issued to a barracked Bereitschaftspolizei unit that was taken into the military in 1934-35. This suggests the gun served in the army during WWII.

I'm puzzled by the C/G on the chamber. This stamp is found on a number of Lugers that were issued to police in the mid=1920s but I have never seen it in this location. It appears to have been stamped after the 1920 but I may be wrong. It may indicate reworking of some sort in the mid-20s for the police.

I hope this helps a bit.

DonVoigt · 11-09-2015, 09:44 PM

Don,
thanks for your observations; I'm sure the C/G is over the 1920-due to the way the metal is pushed into the "9" and not the other way.

These C/G marked Police lugers are interesting to me and I have gathered a few pictures and numbers and unit markings; I'll start a new thread so as not to hi-jack this one.

Edward Tinker · 11-09-2015, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

The mark "under" the 1920 is a crown/ G; a known acceptance mark for pistols taken into police service in the Weimar era.

That is new to me...

DonVoigt · 11-09-2015, 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

That is new to me...

You(or maybe Dwight) wrote it in Police lugers, p-14:

Illustrated Crown/partial G to left, then:
"The earliest military proof mark found on commercial lugers rebarreled to 9mm for police use is a Fraktur letter G surmounted by an abbreviated crown. These are found in addition to the c/n on the left receiver and underneath the barrel. Occasionally they are found on the right receiver of repaired surplus P08s."

Perhaps I should have quoted the entire two sentences, but I thought I had the jist of it.

I realize this is not a commercial luger rebarreled to 9mm, but it surely seems to be the same partial Crown over G.

Wrong?

I started this thread on the other forum, because I can never remember where I am!

http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...770#post298770

34SF · 11-10-2015, 04:15 PM

Thank you again gentlemen. Very glad to have something to add to the narrative which (to me) makes the pistol more unique/interesting. The owner has told me stories of carrying this gun under the front seat of his car for self defense shortly after the Korean war ended and generally mistreating it over the years but adding a bit of color to its past. You've been more than generous with your knowledge and I again thank you for your time.

34SF · 11-10-2015, 05:50 PM

Can someone tell me what the under-case "i" or "l" stamp on the underside of the barrel means, please?

DonVoigt · 11-10-2015, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 34SF

Can someone tell me what the under-case "i" or "l" stamp on the underside of the barrel means, please?

It is the "suffix" letter of the serial number, and is part of the serial number marking, strictly speaking.

Each year started with 1 for military lugers, went to 10000 without a suffix, then 1 to 10000 with "a", and so on down to "i" and in large production years even farther.

If the number/letter on the barrel is not the same as the number/letter on the front of the frame, it is mis-matched.
Small parts had only the last 2 digits of the number.

But then not all barrels had the suffix stamped, and some didn't even have the number applied.

Maybe you really should buy a book or read a lot of the old threads here.

Start with the stickys, there is a good one for newcomers to the
luger forum, they are at the top of the list of sub forums or in the New collector forum.

Sergio Natali · 11-11-2015, 04:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 34SF

Can someone tell me what the under-case "i" or "l" stamp on the underside of the barrel means, please?

If you browse through this site you'll find plenty of basic useful informations.

34SF · 11-12-2015, 01:45 PM

As stated above, all marks are matching. Though there are several pictures on this site and elsewhere on the net showing this mark, there is no definitive data explaining whether it is a n "i," and "l," or something else. If I understand the cycle correctly, if the mark is an "i" it would make the gun 2831 of 100,000 for the production year. According to another source, DWM made almost 1M of the gun. As I stated earlier, I'm trying to put this gun in a narrative context before I give it back to it's owner before Christmas. Consequently, I'd rather not guess at an interpretation and would defer to your expert knowledge before risking misinforming the owner due to my inexperience. Thank you for the suggestions.

11-07-2015, 01:42 PM	#1
34SF User Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	History help 1916 Luger I am trying to help a neighbor who owns this Luger. I had intended to send this out for an appraisal by one of the commercial experts but after talking with them, it appears that the gun's value is more sentimental than monetary and the cost of the appraisal would add little to the story of the gun. Not to mention the cost of reclaiming the gun through Brady and transfer fees. I've been able to piece together some some history but I would prefer to have a more experienced perspective rather than my guess work. I have built a presentation box for this gun and would like to include a narrative that explains the marks. I believe this gun has gone through two wars and has story. The photos below show the serial and proofs. There is almost no "straw" left on anything and the gun is working but reflects its age. The "31" from the serial appears on all the small parts and the grips but I could only find the "F" on one grip. If this is not the right place for this, any advice would be appreciated. Attached Thumbnails

11-09-2015, 03:28 PM	#12
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	I'll add what I can to the above. My research strongly suggests that the I in the police property marking S.D.I.905. indicated the gun belonged to the Schupo command in Essen. This marking is in accordance with marking instructions issued in 1932. As mentioned, the 1920 stamp indicates the gun had been re-issued to the police by that date. The front grip strap shows evidence (remnant periods) that an earlier marking was ground off before the current one was applied. This was probably a marking for the same police unit but conforming to instructions issued in 1922. The pistol definitely did not have a Walther (mag) safety added and one of the photos seems to show that there is no Schiwy (sear) safety. As stated above, this indicates the gun was issued to a barracked Bereitschaftspolizei unit that was taken into the military in 1934-35. This suggests the gun served in the army during WWII. I'm puzzled by the C/G on the chamber. This stamp is found on a number of Lugers that were issued to police in the mid=1920s but I have never seen it in this location. It appears to have been stamped after the 1920 but I may be wrong. It may indicate reworking of some sort in the mid-20s for the police. I hope this helps a bit. __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

11-07-2015, 04:53 PM	#2
tomaustin Lifer X5 Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: texas Posts: 708 Thanks: 87 Thanked 522 Times in 201 Posts	it is a football Saturday....hang-on , help is coming...........

11-07-2015, 06:12 PM	#3
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Well, it was a DWM WW1 gun originally, later stamped as gov't property (1920). The book guys will tell you what the unit markings SDI represents, but that little stamp over the 9 in 1920 has my eye. Photos of the entire gun may help us access value, but be patient, those markings will be explained, or at least debated to death, a bit later. Markings withstanding, and given the photos, I'll guestimate $1200-$1500 for retail value, but that is admittedly way premature here. dju

11-07-2015, 06:54 PM	#4
roadkill1 Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Virginia Posts: 127 Thanks: 166 Thanked 129 Times in 63 Posts	The marking on this front grip strap of "S.D.I. 905." is from the Dusseldorf Municipal Police District, Section I, pistol #905. The reference for this identification is from German Small Arms Markings, by Gortz and Bryans, Chapter V, Police Unit Markings, pp. 93-96. Ron

11-07-2015, 08:10 PM	#5
34SF User Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Gents, thank you for the info thus far and it is exactly what I need. The value is in the contextual history and I'd really like to tell the story of this gun when I return it to him. I'll put to together tomorrow and take a complete picture as well as a better image of the mark under the 1920. Thank you again.

11-07-2015, 08:42 PM	#6
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,677 Thanks: 1,439 Thanked 4,347 Times in 2,038 Posts	The mark "under" the 1920 is a crown/ G; a known acceptance mark for pistols taken into police service in the Weimar era.

11-07-2015, 09:57 PM	#7
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Saw three double dates today: a relatively rare 1920/1920 sold $840, a 1910/1920 sold $750 (looks being original on pictures), and a 1918/1920 sold $780. Short on cash these days, otherwise they could be great.

11-08-2015, 05:30 PM	#9
34SF User Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Additional pictures as requested. Attached Thumbnails

11-09-2015, 01:49 PM	#10
34SF User Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The crown-G mark under the 1920 is proving hard to identify. It is dissimilar to the crown G proof mark in the FAB and elsewhere and I'm not finding this mark elsewhere in the references. Can you elaborate? Is it in conjuction with the 1920 mark?

11-09-2015, 09:44 PM	#13
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,677 Thanks: 1,439 Thanked 4,347 Times in 2,038 Posts	Don, thanks for your observations; I'm sure the C/G is over the 1920-due to the way the metal is pushed into the "9" and not the other way. These C/G marked Police lugers are interesting to me and I have gathered a few pictures and numbers and unit markings; I'll start a new thread so as not to hi-jack this one.

11-10-2015, 04:15 PM	#16
34SF User Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thank you again gentlemen. Very glad to have something to add to the narrative which (to me) makes the pistol more unique/interesting. The owner has told me stories of carrying this gun under the front seat of his car for self defense shortly after the Korean war ended and generally mistreating it over the years but adding a bit of color to its past. You've been more than generous with your knowledge and I again thank you for your time.

11-10-2015, 05:50 PM	#17
34SF User Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Can someone tell me what the under-case "i" or "l" stamp on the underside of the barrel means, please?

11-12-2015, 01:45 PM	#20
34SF User Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	As stated above, all marks are matching. Though there are several pictures on this site and elsewhere on the net showing this mark, there is no definitive data explaining whether it is a n "i," and "l," or something else. If I understand the cycle correctly, if the mark is an "i" it would make the gun 2831 of 100,000 for the production year. According to another source, DWM made almost 1M of the gun. As I stated earlier, I'm trying to put this gun in a narrative context before I give it back to it's owner before Christmas. Consequently, I'd rather not guess at an interpretation and would defer to your expert knowledge before risking misinforming the owner due to my inexperience. Thank you for the suggestions.