Gentleman, may i introduce to you, lp_08, serial a 6327

wolfganggo · 03-19-2008, 02:07 AM

IÃ¢??m reading this forum for a while, interested in identifiing an parabellum my grandpa brought home from war, grandpa was member of Ã¢??Organisation TodtÃ¢?? (i think it was his personal weapon), and bevor her died he gave it to my father.

Many years ago my father took the gun and together with me (his 12 year old boy) he disassembled it, cleaned it and protected it with an sweet smelling weapon oil, probably in this days my enthusiasm for parabellums has itÃ¢??s roots. I can smell the old oil, only thinking on this days, itÃ¢??s like smelling an old steamengine, you donÃ¢??t need to see the things, you can feel past days...

I collected some manuals and drawings of the gun, and with my growing knowledge, i saw other parabellums, the long one, the ari version, and i know, somedays i will be the owner of an long ari parabellum.

3 weeks ago at my shooting range i saw an pretty lp-08, after one day of thinking about the price, i gave ma heart hick, and bought it. Hardly payed to the dealer, i went back to the shooting gallery and fired two magazines of rounds, canÃ¢??t belive, iÃ¢??m firing my lp-08 ari, and i have to tell you, iÃ¢??m very proud ....

So let me introduce this gun to you, to you gentleman, being the specialists and lovers of this kind of guns
The lady is an 1915 Ã¢??DWMÃ¢?? produced gun with matching numbers, except the grips. An Ã¢??fxoÃ¢?? extruded magazine was in the gun, could hardly fit to an 1915 weapon.

Looking a little strange to me is, the numbers on the magazine seem to be original and old - could the gun have an Ã¢??overhaulÃ¢?? during WW II. the wooden grips are serialed with Ã¢??60Ã¢?? and the have an Waa655 stamp on it (possibly at mauserwerke oberndorf ??)

So my quaestiones to you, the specialists:
What markings do an 1915 DWM magazine show, i know about the wooden magazine base, but when searching for an original magazine, what shall i observe ??

Do woodgrips produced 1915 at DWM have any markings, are the serialized ??

IÃ¢??m looking for an snaildrummagazin and loader tool ...;-)

.
.
.
.
.

Yes, i know, itÃ¢??s the wrong place for an Ã¢??ordinary 4Ã¢?? barreled p-08Ã¢??, but excuse me, i will present you this gun also. The younger sister of my ari 08 is an mauser oberndorf produced 08.
Also with matching numbers, a little bit worn blueing....

So at this place also a few questions to you:
This weapon has no Waa stamp on it, any ideas why.
What indicates the Ã¢??B90Ã¢?? stamp
According to the little proof-stampguide on your site the proofs indicates Ã¢??mauser military proof on Ã¢??KÃ¢?? or Ã¢??GÃ¢?? dated examplesÃ¢??, was this enough for the Ã¢??AbnahmeÃ¢?? or indicates the Ã¢??B90Ã¢?? stamp the Ã¢??AbnahmeÃ¢??.
I found this stamp (B90) also on the magazine. The mag has no other markings and is an Ã¢??ironplate Ã¢?? foldedÃ¢?? type of magazine.

any comments are welcome
with best regards from austria, wolfganggo

John Sabato · 03-19-2008, 06:20 AM

Wolfganggo,

Welcome to the Lugerforum and thanks so much for sharing these fine pistols with us. I am short for time right now , but will comment later...

Big Norm · 03-19-2008, 09:03 AM

Wolfganggo,
you should be very proud of this treasure because you personally know something of its history. The 1915 dated artillery is one of those hard to find years for collectors because fewer of them were manufactured. The adjustable 'with screws' front and rear sights add just a little more maucho to the gun. Your artillery doesn't look like its been altered by rebluing or restrawing and that makes it more desirable to collectors.

So much for the over view of the gun, and now the details. There were only 15,000 1915 dated artilleries manufactured . This compares to 20,000 1916's and 90,000 1917's. Since the 1915 was produced early during the war, many were destroyed in combat. Others were lost by the returning allies who were told they would be punished if they were caught bringing captured guns back to their countries. So the soldiers simply threw them over the sides of the returning boats. Also, at one time, the Luger pistol was a very common gun and not considered to be something that is collectible to gun enthusists. As a result, many were destroyed by police departments because they were used in crimes or they were simply just abused by their owners. The list of reasons as to why these guns have disappeared is long. The list of people who are collecting them is also long and growing longer.

The Luger is sort of unique in that so many are dated or otherwise marked to indicate their period in history. I often surprise myself when I think of the simularities between Luger collecting and coin collecting. Both can be dated and both have their values determined on originality and condition. A quick look at your artillery seems to indicate to me that it is mostly all original. Please do not try to make it look more pretty by having someone improve its appearance. It looks just fine.

The adjustible screws on the front and rear sights on your pistol were on the earlier artillery Lugers. They were eliminated sometime during the 1917 production/contract year. As a collector and admirer of these pistols, I think that it adds a little something to the general appearance of the gun. But thats just my personal feelings.

The mismatched grips on you gun are possibly original for the period but simply mismatched for the gun. Since they are original, that does give them some value but do not really significantly diminish the over all value of the gun. Try not to get any oil on the wood while cleaning. This will cause the wood to darken and eventually rot. Be very careful when removing the grips. There is a place on the left hand side by the thumb safety that can break off very easy because the wood is very old and very dry. To collectors, this is known as the million dollar break. Some say it can be fixed, some say it can not be. But its best to not break it in the first place. When removing the left grip, I find it better to remove the magazine and gently push the grips out from magazine well with your finger.
I hope that this helps you. Keep your artillery well oiled and enjoy the shooting.
Big Norm

John Sabato · 03-19-2008, 09:48 AM

WOW Norm... you covered everything and left nothing for me to say about the artillery... now we need someone to step up and comment on the proof and inspection stamps on his Mauser Luger...

... and great advice on not getting oil on the wood... Good Job all around!

Congrats again Wolfganggo... it is a great LP-08!

Ron Smith · 03-19-2008, 01:49 PM

Yeah! What Norm said...

mauro · 03-19-2008, 03:36 PM

Hello Wolfganggo,
Nice pistols! Congratulation.
Mauro

LU1900 · 03-19-2008, 07:39 PM

..........

alvin · 03-19-2008, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wolfganggo
This weapon has no Waa stamp on it

From "Third Reich Lugers" (Still, 1988):

K Chamber = 1934
B90, S91 = Acceptance Stamps
Eagle = Test Proof

Type 1 Army magazine for this type of gun.

Went Blakely · 03-19-2008, 09:08 PM

not a bad looking Arti at all there mate, congrats on the find

wolfganggo · 03-20-2008, 01:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by LU1900
The spring with little piece alu in the other side on the mag : alu up !
And very nice "K" S/42 : I like it !

oups - thx, wolfganggo

wolfganggo · 03-20-2008, 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by alvin
From "Third Reich Lugers" (Still, 1988):

K Chamber = 1934
B90, S91 = Acceptance Stamps
Eagle = Test Proof

Type 1 Army magazine for this type of gun.

i have ordered some books last week, to get my understanding sooner, pls correct if i'm wrong......

"test proof stamp: like todays proof stamps, the fired an overloaded round to last-check the gun. if this test was passed they gave the proof stamp.
on the "K" type the mentioned eagle and a stamp looking like an ornated "H" should be on the barrel (source http://www.lugerforum.com/lugermarkings/proof-4.html).
below you find a picture of my s/42, big eagle appears, but no ornated "H", instead an little eagle appears on the barrel. i think also a proof marking

"acceptance stamps, are signs of final acceptance (after checking and testing it) of this gun from the customer (wehrmacht, police etc.). i have seen many Waa stamps, as an acceptance from "Wehrmacht" on weapons, also i found conversion tables from Waa stamps to "Abnahme"-locations.
i got no clue to the customer using the b90 stamp, any ideas for me ?????

why are there 2 stamps B90, S91, also on other weapons i have seen 2 and more stamps, look at my lp-08...."

"last the magazine, you wrote an "army type 1" mag, sorry sir, do you have any references to books, webpages etc. for me, i can't imagine anything under type 1 magazine.
and pls confirm this type 1 mag. should be the matching one for the lp08 ???"

regards from austria, wolfganggo

alvin · 03-20-2008, 04:41 AM

Stamps
======
The stamp on the left side of the barrel is a Test Proof. On the right side of the barrel, you should find an Acceptance Stamp (B90). The style transition of stamps can be summerized from the book, but I have not done that yet. B90 appears on many K & G date guns, seems to be a gun part Acceptance Stamp, and S91 appears to be the final Acceptance Stamp.

Stamps on DWM receiver are different from S/42
=====================================
The concept is same, but appears in different style and format. I assume hardness checking & parts checking stamps (two on the left side) on the DWM 1915 were replaced by a single B90 on the S/42. (experts correct me if I'm wrong....)

Type 1 Military Magazine, Page 125 of "Third Reich Lugers" (Still, 1988):
========================================================
Rolled (shaped) from sheet metal and held together at the edge with a crimp. The bottom is slant cut with an aluminum base secured with a pin through the rear of the base and tube. The tube is nickel plated. Acceptance stamps reported: 37, B90, S.91, S.92, E/154, E/211, and droop E/63. These magazines were issued with K, G, and 1936 (up to m serial block) dated Lugers.

wolfganggo · 03-20-2008, 04:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Big Norm
Wolfganggo,

".......The mismatched grips on you gun are possibly original for the period but simply mismatched for the gun. Since they are original, that does give them some value but do not really significantly diminish the over all value of the gun..........Big Norm

thx for your advices Big Norm, i will follow them.

regarding the woodgrips, i think 1915 there was no Waa stamp available, so i suppose the where not original WW I.
I always try to get the most original condition, so if it's not with matching numbers, i try to get parts from the same timeperiode and/or from the same factory.
thats why my interest is in gathering any available information about 1915 woodgrips and also in magazines.

i'm not shure what you mean with the million dollar break, which part of the grips will fail. every backside of the grip has many uprisings and slots milled into it. some of them are damaged at my gun, so the grips are a little bit slackly.
i post a picture of gripbackside, marked with arrows you can see the area the grip was misstreated, and the curved arrow points to to Waa 655 stamp...

hope to here from you, wolfganggo

wolfganggo · 03-20-2008, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by alvin
Stamps
======
..... On the right side of the barrel, you should find an Acceptance Stamp (B90). .....

thx, you absolut right, B90 stamp also on barrel, found it with magnifier. position is left top of barrel. proof right side on barrel, see previous posted picture..

Type 1 Military Magazine, Page 125 of "Third Reich Lugers" (Still, 1988):
========================================================
.....Rolled (shaped) from sheet metal and held together at .....

thx for information on the mauser magazin. do you have any information about the lp-08 original magazine, buildt 1915, picture, drawind, etc. ??

wolfganggo

John Sabato · 03-20-2008, 10:34 AM

Here is an example of the "million dollar chip" in the left grip just below the safety lever...

This happens when appropriate care is not taken in grip removal.

alvin · 03-20-2008, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wolfganggo
do you have any information about the lp-08 original magazine, buildt 1915, picture, drawind, etc. ??

Wolf -- You have guns but no books, I have books but no guns.... ok, I do have two, but they are civilian guns, not military guns. I do need to expand the set, studying guns by books without samples in hand is a torture.

LP08 has same magazine like P08. Imperial magazines have wood base. Here is a sample 1915 P08:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...?Item=94841739

People love LP08. One reason is the long barrel, but there is another reason, this thing has a special drum-like hi-cap .... very cool type.

Big Norm · 03-23-2008, 03:05 AM

Wolfganggo,
the best advice that I can give on the grips is for you to go to the "Early Lugers" section of this forum. There are some pictures by my personal favorite Luger collector, Ron Woods. The pictures are excellent (as you would expect off of someone of Ron Woods intelligence). The pictures are at the top of that section under administration.

There isn't really a 1915 artillery grip or a 1917 artillery grip. All artilleries had the same style grip as well as checkering. The important thing is that the both grips fit reasonably tight. Most modern repro grips have some slop, particularly on one side. Apparently, the reproducers didn't realize that the two sides were not the same length and used the same template for both sides. Close, but no prize.

All you should expect to find on the backside of the grips is the inspectors mark and the two digit serial number. The best that you could expect to find on the open market is a WW1 set of grips from a military P-08 or another artillery that are in very good condition to match your gun. You have one chance in 100 of finding it with your number. Possible, yes. Worth the effort, probably not. If all else looks and feels good on your gun, then be happy.

If you really want to dress up your artillery Luger then a snail drum is a must. They really are not hard to find. But the snail drum loader is a tough thing to find. There was only one in a box of maybe six snail drums delivered to the combat lines. So the Loading tool will be six times harder to find.

Then you have the find your original stock for your gun. You will be really dreaming if you think that you could find it. Watch the "For Sale" section on this forum and you may pick something close.

Then, if you are a real purist collector, you should find an original and 1915 dated artillery holster with straps and maybe even a cup to hold the stock. Its a little difficult to find a 1915 holster, but the rest is hard. There are a lot of 1916 and 1917 dated holsters. Read a lot about what Jerry Burney writes on this forum. He is another one of those true masters and there are a lot of repro holsters out there than you would not want.

I hope that I haven't confused you with too much here. But there is a lot to know about Lugers, Thats what makes them so interesting. Keep reading this and Jan Stills forum and you will find a lot of interesting things here.
Good Luck, Big Norm
___________
If you want to make God laugh, tell Him your plans.

03-19-2008, 02:07 AM	#1
wolfganggo User Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: near vienna Posts: 93 Thanks: 1 Thanked 81 Times in 18 Posts	Gentleman, may i introduce to you, lp_08, serial a 6327 IÃ¢??m reading this forum for a while, interested in identifiing an parabellum my grandpa brought home from war, grandpa was member of Ã¢??Organisation TodtÃ¢?? (i think it was his personal weapon), and bevor her died he gave it to my father. Many years ago my father took the gun and together with me (his 12 year old boy) he disassembled it, cleaned it and protected it with an sweet smelling weapon oil, probably in this days my enthusiasm for parabellums has itÃ¢??s roots. I can smell the old oil, only thinking on this days, itÃ¢??s like smelling an old steamengine, you donÃ¢??t need to see the things, you can feel past days... I collected some manuals and drawings of the gun, and with my growing knowledge, i saw other parabellums, the long one, the ari version, and i know, somedays i will be the owner of an long ari parabellum. 3 weeks ago at my shooting range i saw an pretty lp-08, after one day of thinking about the price, i gave ma heart hick, and bought it. Hardly payed to the dealer, i went back to the shooting gallery and fired two magazines of rounds, canÃ¢??t belive, iÃ¢??m firing my lp-08 ari, and i have to tell you, iÃ¢??m very proud .... So let me introduce this gun to you, to you gentleman, being the specialists and lovers of this kind of guns The lady is an 1915 Ã¢??DWMÃ¢?? produced gun with matching numbers, except the grips. An Ã¢??fxoÃ¢?? extruded magazine was in the gun, could hardly fit to an 1915 weapon. Looking a little strange to me is, the numbers on the magazine seem to be original and old - could the gun have an Ã¢??overhaulÃ¢?? during WW II. the wooden grips are serialed with Ã¢??60Ã¢?? and the have an Waa655 stamp on it (possibly at mauserwerke oberndorf ??) So my quaestiones to you, the specialists: What markings do an 1915 DWM magazine show, i know about the wooden magazine base, but when searching for an original magazine, what shall i observe ?? Do woodgrips produced 1915 at DWM have any markings, are the serialized ?? IÃ¢??m looking for an snaildrummagazin and loader tool ...;-) . . . . . Yes, i know, itÃ¢??s the wrong place for an Ã¢??ordinary 4Ã¢?? barreled p-08Ã¢??, but excuse me, i will present you this gun also. The younger sister of my ari 08 is an mauser oberndorf produced 08. Also with matching numbers, a little bit worn blueing.... So at this place also a few questions to you: This weapon has no Waa stamp on it, any ideas why. What indicates the Ã¢??B90Ã¢?? stamp According to the little proof-stampguide on your site the proofs indicates Ã¢??mauser military proof on Ã¢??KÃ¢?? or Ã¢??GÃ¢?? dated examplesÃ¢??, was this enough for the Ã¢??AbnahmeÃ¢?? or indicates the Ã¢??B90Ã¢?? stamp the Ã¢??AbnahmeÃ¢??. I found this stamp (B90) also on the magazine. The mag has no other markings and is an Ã¢??ironplate Ã¢?? foldedÃ¢?? type of magazine. any comments are welcome with best regards from austria, wolfganggo

03-19-2008, 06:20 AM	#2
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,152 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Wolfganggo, Welcome to the Lugerforum and thanks so much for sharing these fine pistols with us. I am short for time right now , but will comment later... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

03-19-2008, 09:48 AM	#4
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,152 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	WOW Norm... you covered everything and left nothing for me to say about the artillery... now we need someone to step up and comment on the proof and inspection stamps on his Mauser Luger... ... and great advice on not getting oil on the wood... Good Job all around! Congrats again Wolfganggo... it is a great LP-08! __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

03-19-2008, 01:49 PM	#5
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Yeah! What Norm said... __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

03-19-2008, 03:36 PM	#6
mauro FIREARM HISTORIAN AND AUT Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 1,535 Thanks: 106 Thanked 349 Times in 129 Posts	Hello Wolfganggo, Nice pistols! Congratulation. Mauro __________________ Mauro Baudino - www.lugerlp08.com www.paul-mauser-archive.com Mauser Company and Firearm Historian - Mauser Parabellum Certification Service.

03-19-2008, 09:03 AM	#3
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Wolfganggo, you should be very proud of this treasure because you personally know something of its history. The 1915 dated artillery is one of those hard to find years for collectors because fewer of them were manufactured. The adjustable 'with screws' front and rear sights add just a little more maucho to the gun. Your artillery doesn't look like its been altered by rebluing or restrawing and that makes it more desirable to collectors. So much for the over view of the gun, and now the details. There were only 15,000 1915 dated artilleries manufactured . This compares to 20,000 1916's and 90,000 1917's. Since the 1915 was produced early during the war, many were destroyed in combat. Others were lost by the returning allies who were told they would be punished if they were caught bringing captured guns back to their countries. So the soldiers simply threw them over the sides of the returning boats. Also, at one time, the Luger pistol was a very common gun and not considered to be something that is collectible to gun enthusists. As a result, many were destroyed by police departments because they were used in crimes or they were simply just abused by their owners. The list of reasons as to why these guns have disappeared is long. The list of people who are collecting them is also long and growing longer. The Luger is sort of unique in that so many are dated or otherwise marked to indicate their period in history. I often surprise myself when I think of the simularities between Luger collecting and coin collecting. Both can be dated and both have their values determined on originality and condition. A quick look at your artillery seems to indicate to me that it is mostly all original. Please do not try to make it look more pretty by having someone improve its appearance. It looks just fine. The adjustible screws on the front and rear sights on your pistol were on the earlier artillery Lugers. They were eliminated sometime during the 1917 production/contract year. As a collector and admirer of these pistols, I think that it adds a little something to the general appearance of the gun. But thats just my personal feelings. The mismatched grips on you gun are possibly original for the period but simply mismatched for the gun. Since they are original, that does give them some value but do not really significantly diminish the over all value of the gun. Try not to get any oil on the wood while cleaning. This will cause the wood to darken and eventually rot. Be very careful when removing the grips. There is a place on the left hand side by the thumb safety that can break off very easy because the wood is very old and very dry. To collectors, this is known as the million dollar break. Some say it can be fixed, some say it can not be. But its best to not break it in the first place. When removing the left grip, I find it better to remove the magazine and gently push the grips out from magazine well with your finger. I hope that this helps you. Keep your artillery well oiled and enjoy the shooting. Big Norm

03-19-2008, 07:39 PM	#7
LU1900 User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: FRANCE Posts: 905 Thanks: 37 Thanked 466 Times in 195 Posts	.......... __________________ Best regards from France...Patrice https://www.fichier-pdf.fr/2016/03/1...nd-snail-drum/

03-19-2008, 09:08 PM	#9
Went Blakely User Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Australia Posts: 231 Thanks: 4 Thanked 8 Times in 6 Posts	not a bad looking Arti at all there mate, congrats on the find __________________ Went Blakely

03-20-2008, 04:41 AM	#12
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Stamps ====== The stamp on the left side of the barrel is a Test Proof. On the right side of the barrel, you should find an Acceptance Stamp (B90). The style transition of stamps can be summerized from the book, but I have not done that yet. B90 appears on many K & G date guns, seems to be a gun part Acceptance Stamp, and S91 appears to be the final Acceptance Stamp. Stamps on DWM receiver are different from S/42 ===================================== The concept is same, but appears in different style and format. I assume hardness checking & parts checking stamps (two on the left side) on the DWM 1915 were replaced by a single B90 on the S/42. (experts correct me if I'm wrong....) Type 1 Military Magazine, Page 125 of "Third Reich Lugers" (Still, 1988): ======================================================== Rolled (shaped) from sheet metal and held together at the edge with a crimp. The bottom is slant cut with an aluminum base secured with a pin through the rear of the base and tube. The tube is nickel plated. Acceptance stamps reported: 37, B90, S.91, S.92, E/154, E/211, and droop E/63. These magazines were issued with K, G, and 1936 (up to m serial block) dated Lugers.

03-20-2008, 10:34 AM	#15
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,152 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Here is an example of the "million dollar chip" in the left grip just below the safety lever... This happens when appropriate care is not taken in grip removal. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

03-23-2008, 03:05 AM	#17
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Wolfganggo, the best advice that I can give on the grips is for you to go to the "Early Lugers" section of this forum. There are some pictures by my personal favorite Luger collector, Ron Woods. The pictures are excellent (as you would expect off of someone of Ron Woods intelligence). The pictures are at the top of that section under administration. There isn't really a 1915 artillery grip or a 1917 artillery grip. All artilleries had the same style grip as well as checkering. The important thing is that the both grips fit reasonably tight. Most modern repro grips have some slop, particularly on one side. Apparently, the reproducers didn't realize that the two sides were not the same length and used the same template for both sides. Close, but no prize. All you should expect to find on the backside of the grips is the inspectors mark and the two digit serial number. The best that you could expect to find on the open market is a WW1 set of grips from a military P-08 or another artillery that are in very good condition to match your gun. You have one chance in 100 of finding it with your number. Possible, yes. Worth the effort, probably not. If all else looks and feels good on your gun, then be happy. If you really want to dress up your artillery Luger then a snail drum is a must. They really are not hard to find. But the snail drum loader is a tough thing to find. There was only one in a box of maybe six snail drums delivered to the combat lines. So the Loading tool will be six times harder to find. Then you have the find your original stock for your gun. You will be really dreaming if you think that you could find it. Watch the "For Sale" section on this forum and you may pick something close. Then, if you are a real purist collector, you should find an original and 1915 dated artillery holster with straps and maybe even a cup to hold the stock. Its a little difficult to find a 1915 holster, but the rest is hard. There are a lot of 1916 and 1917 dated holsters. Read a lot about what Jerry Burney writes on this forum. He is another one of those true masters and there are a lot of repro holsters out there than you would not want. I hope that I haven't confused you with too much here. But there is a lot to know about Lugers, Thats what makes them so interesting. Keep reading this and Jan Stills forum and you will find a lot of interesting things here. Good Luck, Big Norm ___________ If you want to make God laugh, tell Him your plans.