sideplate #99 needed

04-09-2002, 09:04 PM

I know...it's like looking for the proverbial needle in a haystack...but there should be at least one Luger sideplate numbered #99 out there somewhere. I have a #50 that would be an extra if I am successful in getting a #99 to detail out a decent 1917 artillery. Thanks, Wayne

Dan Clemons · 04-09-2002, 11:24 PM

04-10-2002, 01:31 AM

I have a #99 sideplate plus a bunch of others. However, they are not for sale to you unethical part switchers.

dgp42 · 04-10-2002, 11:24 AM

If a person needed a specific # part because the part had been changed or lost in the history of the pistol; why would it be considered as "unethical"? or is that a personal opinion? or a generally held opinion in the Luger collecting community? why would a person have a bunch of extra sideplates if not to use them at a future date? unless of course they just simply enjoy collecting sideplates . I too have a #99 1937 S/42 sideplate. But, alas it's original to my S/42 and not for sale or trade.

04-10-2002, 11:58 AM

Thanks, dgp42. I wasn't even going to dignify that cheap shot from the sideplate collector with a reply, because my daddy always told me never to get into a pissing contest with a skunk. In this instance, I make an exception. Since I am only a general collector, perhaps this eminent specialist knows something about Lugers that I don't. This is the first time that I've ever heard that replacing a replaced part with a correct one has anything to do with ethics. There's one thing I know for sure; this clown has no graduate degree in philosophy, nor in diplomacy. Perhaps a Dale Carnegie course would be a good start. If the pistol came to me without a sideplate at all, would it be OK for me to complete the pistol, and, if, perchance, I found one with the same number, would that be more inappropriate than using one of the other 99 possibilities? Since his extra sideplates are not to be applied to guns, perhaps he should seek another matching one and make a pair of earrings.

Kyrie · 04-10-2002, 03:50 PM

Hi Wayne,

Absolutely no offense intended, but ...

You received the reply you did from Marney because parts swapping is the most common kind of forgery with Lugers. Ã¢??MatchingÃ¢?Â is collector shorthand for Ã¢??all original.Ã¢?Â If you were to find and use a side plate numbered Ã¢??99Ã¢?Â on your Luger it would make it appear to be matching when in fact it was not. Among the collectors of firearms that were assembled with the parts serial numbered to the frame part swapping to make such a firearm appear to be something it is not is viewed as forgery, and the folks who do this kind of thing are viewed as forgers.

I understand you may be new to collecting Lugers, and just stumbled into a minefield you werenÃ¢??t aware was there. I hope this note will help understand what happened, and why.

Best regards,

Kyrie

Moderator - Cruffler_Forum on Yahoo Groups

"The flame free C&R Forum."

John Sabato · 04-10-2002, 03:51 PM

GENTLEMEN, first, please let me welcome BOTH of you to the Lugerforum. All new posters who have an interest in Lugers are welcome here. This is a user-friendly website, and quite frankly it is not like other forums that you may have experienced.

May I suggest that you both take a few moments to read, or, as the case may be for anyone who has lurked here for a while, re-read, the document titled Forum Decorum, , located under the General Information link, if you would like to continue to participate in this forum.

Personal attacks are not tolerated here. Your compliance with "the rules" for participation here, is not an option, but required.

You are requested to Please play nice, or play somewhere else. Poor behavior can result in being banned from posting here. If you want to discuss collector ethics, then by all means discuss them, but stand down on the personal attacks. They have no place here.

I know I can speak for the forum in general, but for our webmaster, and say that the members would rather that you join us in meaningful and friendly discussion about the Luger pistol, than for you to be asked to leave, or be told that you are no longer welcome here.

regards,

John Sabato

04-10-2002, 04:26 PM

I only used a mild rebuke calling part swapping unethical, because sooner or later the Luger in question will be (not may be) sold as all original to an unsuspecting buyer. Furthermore, changed sideplates are the most common cause of Luger malfunctioning, as they were originally hand fitted to each gun. However, it appears that I am now given to understand that all future discussions dealing with how to go about faking a Luger are to be treated with great respect. Therefore, I shall no longer call attention to such nefarious pactices.

Johnny Peppers · 04-10-2002, 05:32 PM

If the buyer doesn't know to look inside the sideplate for the correct number, he really doesn't know enough yet to be buying "original" Lugers anyway. If the number inside the sideplate is not correct, the sideplate still isn't matching. If he falls for that he probably won't notice that the pistol has been reblued and the grips re-cut. How can a mismatched sideplate be fakery? Fakery is making $10,000 Lugers out of $600 Lugers, and this is what is giving Luger collecting a bad name; not someone looking for a sideplate with the same last two digits of his serial number.

04-10-2002, 05:36 PM

I'm always willing to listen and it's great to get clarification from others. Interestingly, it was suggested by a collector as well as a reputable dealer in these items that I check the LugerForum for this part. Some of the things that I've seen done to Lugers certainly damage the hobby, such as applying death's heads and fabricating cartridge counters out of regular ones. I've seen examples of both...beautiful work...perhaps one is in your collection, now. Yes, this is bad business. However, I think a distinction has to be made to some degree between replacing a part that might even be right with one that is definitely wrong, in an effort to return a specimen to its original condition, as opposed to altering a specimen to make it appear to be something that it was not from the beginning. In the realm of Lugers, if the authorities tell me I'm entirely wrong, then I stand corrected.In otherareas of selective gun collecting this is the standard. Check Ron Gabel's website (GabelGuns.com) for a statement on restoration vs. fakery for an "ethical" position on antiques. This is not just his opinion...I know...I'm mixing apples with oranges. What you are telling me is that the ethics for a pre 1898 piece are fundamentally different than for a Luger dated 1917...19 years more recent. Interesting.

John Sabato · 04-10-2002, 05:54 PM

"However, they are not for sale to you unethical part switchers." Name calling at the least Marney... Let's just discuss the possiblities without the name calling and everything will be fine...

regards,

John Sabato

Luke · 04-10-2002, 06:15 PM

04-10-2002, 07:20 PM

better than a straight forward one in e-mail and a forum such as this.

I have irritated and made people mad by writing something I thought was harmless, but unlike face-to-face, it is difficult to judge intent.

So, what appears to be a mild rebuke can sound like a strong one.

Ed

dgp42 · 04-10-2002, 07:57 PM

when all is said and done. putting our little hobbies in their"true perspective" will always clear the air.imo

Dok · 04-11-2002, 08:31 PM

at the top of this page... just click on the word "here". Thank you John for your diligence, and we welcome new members to share, discuss and learn, but at all times, be respectful.

Whenever opinions vary, the opportunity exists to overstep the line in defense of you "position". We try to keep that to a minimum. By all means discuss what constitutes forgery, there'll be as many opinions as there are participants, and all that helps to crystalize our thinking, but above all, keep it respectful.

Thanks,

Dok (Webmaster)

04-09-2002, 09:04 PM	#1
Wayne Heckert Guest Posts: n/a	sideplate #99 needed I know...it's like looking for the proverbial needle in a haystack...but there should be at least one Luger sideplate numbered #99 out there somewhere. I have a #50 that would be an extra if I am successful in getting a #99 to detail out a decent 1917 artillery. Thanks, Wayne

04-09-2002, 11:24 PM	#2
Dan Clemons User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Grants Pass, OR Posts: 184 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: sideplate #99 needed for me too. (EOM)

04-10-2002, 01:31 AM	#3
Marney Walsh Guest Posts: n/a	Re: sideplate #99 needed for me too. I have a #99 sideplate plus a bunch of others. However, they are not for sale to you unethical part switchers.

04-10-2002, 11:24 AM	#4
dgp42 User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Central Calif. Coast Posts: 50 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: sideplate #99 needed for me too. If a person needed a specific # part because the part had been changed or lost in the history of the pistol; why would it be considered as "unethical"? or is that a personal opinion? or a generally held opinion in the Luger collecting community? why would a person have a bunch of extra sideplates if not to use them at a future date? unless of course they just simply enjoy collecting sideplates . I too have a #99 1937 S/42 sideplate. But, alas it's original to my S/42 and not for sale or trade.

04-10-2002, 03:50 PM	#6
Kyrie User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 757 Thanks: 0 Thanked 212 Times in 101 Posts	Re: sideplate #99 needed for me too. Hi Wayne, Absolutely no offense intended, but ... You received the reply you did from Marney because parts swapping is the most common kind of forgery with Lugers. Ã¢??MatchingÃ¢?Â is collector shorthand for Ã¢??all original.Ã¢?Â If you were to find and use a side plate numbered Ã¢??99Ã¢?Â on your Luger it would make it appear to be matching when in fact it was not. Among the collectors of firearms that were assembled with the parts serial numbered to the frame part swapping to make such a firearm appear to be something it is not is viewed as forgery, and the folks who do this kind of thing are viewed as forgers. I understand you may be new to collecting Lugers, and just stumbled into a minefield you werenÃ¢??t aware was there. I hope this note will help understand what happened, and why. Best regards, Kyrie Moderator - Cruffler_Forum on Yahoo Groups "The flame free C&R Forum."

04-10-2002, 11:58 AM	#5
Wayne Heckert Guest Posts: n/a	Re: sideplate #99 needed for me too. Thanks, dgp42. I wasn't even going to dignify that cheap shot from the sideplate collector with a reply, because my daddy always told me never to get into a pissing contest with a skunk. In this instance, I make an exception. Since I am only a general collector, perhaps this eminent specialist knows something about Lugers that I don't. This is the first time that I've ever heard that replacing a replaced part with a correct one has anything to do with ethics. There's one thing I know for sure; this clown has no graduate degree in philosophy, nor in diplomacy. Perhaps a Dale Carnegie course would be a good start. If the pistol came to me without a sideplate at all, would it be OK for me to complete the pistol, and, if, perchance, I found one with the same number, would that be more inappropriate than using one of the other 99 possibilities? Since his extra sideplates are not to be applied to guns, perhaps he should seek another matching one and make a pair of earrings.

04-10-2002, 03:51 PM	#7
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Mr. Marney Walsh & Mr. Wayne Heckert !!! *GENTLEMEN, first, please let me welcome BOTH of you to the Lugerforum. All new posters who have an interest in Lugers are welcome here. This is a user-friendly website, and quite frankly it is not like other forums that you may have experienced. May I suggest that you both take a few moments to read, or, as the case may be for anyone who has lurked here for a while, re-read, the document titled Forum Decorum*, , located under the General Information link, if you would like to continue to participate in this forum. Personal attacks are not tolerated here. Your compliance with "the rules" for participation here, is not an option, but required. You are requested to Please play nice, or play somewhere else. Poor behavior can result in being banned from posting here. If you want to discuss collector ethics, then by all means discuss them, but stand down on the personal attacks. They have no place here. I know I can speak for the forum in general, but for our webmaster, and say that the members would rather that you join us in meaningful and friendly discussion about the Luger pistol, than for you to be asked to leave, or be told that you are no longer welcome here. regards, John Sabato

04-10-2002, 04:26 PM	#8
Marney Walsh Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Mr. Marney Walsh & Mr. Wayne Heckert !!! I only used a mild rebuke calling part swapping unethical, because sooner or later the Luger in question will be (not may be) sold as all original to an unsuspecting buyer. Furthermore, changed sideplates are the most common cause of Luger malfunctioning, as they were originally hand fitted to each gun. However, it appears that I am now given to understand that all future discussions dealing with how to go about faking a Luger are to be treated with great respect. Therefore, I shall no longer call attention to such nefarious pactices.

04-10-2002, 05:32 PM	#9
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Mr. Marney Walsh & Mr. Wayne Heckert !!! If the buyer doesn't know to look inside the sideplate for the correct number, he really doesn't know enough yet to be buying "original" Lugers anyway. If the number inside the sideplate is not correct, the sideplate still isn't matching. If he falls for that he probably won't notice that the pistol has been reblued and the grips re-cut. How can a mismatched sideplate be fakery? Fakery is making $10,000 Lugers out of $600 Lugers, and this is what is giving Luger collecting a bad name; not someone looking for a sideplate with the same last two digits of his serial number.

04-10-2002, 05:36 PM	#10
Wayne Heckert Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Mr. Marney Walsh & Mr. Wayne Heckert !!! I'm always willing to listen and it's great to get clarification from others. Interestingly, it was suggested by a collector as well as a reputable dealer in these items that I check the LugerForum for this part. Some of the things that I've seen done to Lugers certainly damage the hobby, such as applying death's heads and fabricating cartridge counters out of regular ones. I've seen examples of both...beautiful work...perhaps one is in your collection, now. Yes, this is bad business. However, I think a distinction has to be made to some degree between replacing a part that might even be right with one that is definitely wrong, in an effort to return a specimen to its original condition, as opposed to altering a specimen to make it appear to be something that it was not from the beginning. In the realm of Lugers, if the authorities tell me I'm entirely wrong, then I stand corrected.In otherareas of selective gun collecting this is the standard. Check Ron Gabel's website (GabelGuns.com) for a statement on restoration vs. fakery for an "ethical" position on antiques. This is not just his opinion...I know...I'm mixing apples with oranges. What you are telling me is that the ethics for a pre 1898 piece are fundamentally different than for a Luger dated 1917...19 years more recent. Interesting.

04-10-2002, 05:54 PM	#11
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	A mild rebuke? "However, they are not for sale to you unethical part switchers." Name calling at the least Marney... Let's just discuss the possiblities without the name calling and everything will be fine... regards, John Sabato

04-10-2002, 06:15 PM	#12
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	Good for you Mr. Sabato. (EOM)

04-10-2002, 07:20 PM	#13
66mustang Guest Posts: n/a	Discussion is great, and mild rebukes are better than a straight forward one in e-mail and a forum such as this. I have irritated and made people mad by writing something I thought was harmless, but unlike face-to-face, it is difficult to judge intent. So, what appears to be a mild rebuke can sound like a strong one. Ed

04-10-2002, 07:57 PM	#14
dgp42 User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Central Calif. Coast Posts: 50 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Discussion is great, and mild rebukes are when all is said and done. putting our little hobbies in their"true perspective" will always clear the air.imo

04-11-2002, 08:31 PM	#15
Dok RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Bermuda (Eat Your Heart Out) Posts: 1,626 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	There is a link to the Forum Decorum... at the top of this page... just click on the word "here". Thank you John for your diligence, and we welcome new members to share, discuss and learn, but at all times, be respectful. Whenever opinions vary, the opportunity exists to overstep the line in defense of you "position". We try to keep that to a minimum. By all means discuss what constitutes forgery, there'll be as many opinions as there are participants, and all that helps to crystalize our thinking, but above all, keep it respectful. Thanks, Dok (Webmaster)