Grading lugers

I am new to Luger collecting and am wondering just how subjective the grading of collectibles is. How do you determine whether a gun is 98% blue or only 95%? How do you determine whether the straw is 95% or only 90%. How do you determine whether the barrel is excellent, very good or just good. Are there collectors/dealers who you can ship your gun to and have it graded?

This was discussed a short while ago and did not seem to be resolved. I took the time to measure the exterior surface area of a 4inch barrel military Luger and came up with about 24 inches of blued area on a strawed 08 and about 25-26 inches on an all salt blued 08. At this point one simply needs to measure the LxW of any worn area/areas and add them up and subtract from total possible area. This takes the snake oil out of the deal and keeps everyone honest. Personally I think the whole "percent" mentality has reached ridiculous heights and I simply look at the piece inside and out and determine if it appears to be honest and a good example. The ability to fake and enhance finishes has been perfected and the collector demand for 99% condition has resulted in more "nice" Lugers around now than there was in 1945! On your last question, there are no certified Luger condition appraisers as in coin collecting (thank heavens) and IMO it is best if each collector learns to do this on their own.

Thanks, that helps me understand. Do you have any guidance on grading of barrel condition? Is it a good idea (I mean does it increase the value)to remove and "clean" the wooden grips on a collectible piece?

Bore condition is another great example of subjectivity. I would say the following:

1. "mint"- this simply means just like new

2. "Excellent" Very sharp no real wear or pits, fired some

3. "very Good" Shows some wear and light pits, rifling strong

4. Good- fair amount of wear and or pitting, pretty dark, rifling may be very worn but would still spin a bullet.


I use something like the above conditions to look at a bore, I don't think that bore condition should be a MAJOR attracter or detracter in a Collecter type firearm, but it does carry a bit of an impact.

As far as the grips are concerned, be careful in removing them, the area above the left grip saftey cut out is very prone to breakage if force is used. Also you have to decide what type of cleaning and what real improvement this will bring. I would say if you do anything be sure and not use any type of abraisive or harsh chemical. Also of course do not put grips with any moisture in them back on the gun as this will cause the frame to develope rust under the grips.

[BILL]

Some collectors believe that no modification to the condition of a collection grade Luger will improve it's value. That being said, cleaning the grips with a dry soft bristle toothbrush is the most some collectors will consider doing to their pistols. (Is it just me or has anyone else noticed the aroma of original Luger grips when you take them off of an old, never been messed with Luger?)

[Luke]

Isn't it interesting that automobile buffs purchase old rusted-out antique cars and have them totally refinished, new paint, new upholstry, new floor mats, etc. and dramatically increase their value? Yet, improving a Luger with a new blue job reduces its value to that of a shooter.

Different worlds.

[tony k]

Actually, there's a growing movement in collector car circles valuing "survivors" -- well-maintained originals -- as high or higher than those cars restored to better-than-new. It got sorta crazy there for awhile, with fanatics dressing every weld on the undercarriage ..... suddenly collectors have discovered the value of "patina." Unfortunately, a lot of nice original 85% cars underwent ground-up restorations before that value became known. Not unlike what happened to a lot of Lugers in the '50s and '60s. Old lessons just get learned over and over, I guess.

[HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr]

Same thing is to long guns.


It doenst matter that a holland holland shotgun have a new stock and a is reblued its third time.


Regards HÃ?Â¥kan

In all the different types of art collecting, and I consider Lugers and antique cars as art, cars are the only field where a restoration will increase value, though as previously mentioned , this is slowly changing with new classes for unrestored cars appearing at important concurs such as Pebble Beach. Restoration of cars is understandable as many lived outside for a large portion of their lives and survived in comparatively poor condition. A larger number of Lugers were manufactured and a larger percentage of Lugers survived in good condition relative to comparable importance antique/vintage cars. To the enthusiasts, an unrestored work of art will always be more desirable then a comparable restored example.


Bill S. (ALFA2NINE@aol.com)

It may not matter to the shooter that the Holland & Holland has been reblued and the stock replaced, but it sure devalues the piece in the eyes of the collector. The extreme case would be the axe which George Washington used to chop down the cherry tree. Said axe is owned by a friend of mine, though the head has ben replaced twice and the handle three times.


Ciao,

Bill S. (ALFA2NINE@aol.com)

[HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr]

Bill


if you look at the prices of vintage huntingguns you will soon find out that no ones cares if the guns are original or not.

Probably because there is almost no guns at all that not has been refinished.

Normally in a english auction catalogue you always finds the barrelthickness measurements and that is because the barrels have been polished down and up so many times.


Regards HÃ?Â¥kan



http://www.vapensmedjan.com

[Johnny Peppers]

That is certainly not the case in the US and if you will pick up any copy of the Gun List you will find that it bears out my statement. Quality factory original pieces bring substantially more than redone pieces. One of the few accepted refinished guns was the Parker shotguns refinished by Del Greco, and even these in the high grade guns would not come close to the value a factory original Parker. You have to remember that a refinished gun has 0% original finish. Doug Turnbull does a wonderful job of refinishing vintage Colts and Winchesters and his quality probably exceeds the original finish on these guns, but they will not bring anywhere near the money that a factory original piece will. At a recent Tulsa show there was a display of original Model 1874 Sharps rifles. There was a consecutive numbered pair shipped to Ft. Griffin, Texas which was in the heart of the buffalo country in the early 1870's. These rifles had zero finish and were virtually worn out, but the value on the pair was estimated at close to $100,000. If these rifles had been refinished they would have some value for where they were shipped, but all their history and most of their value would have been buffed away.

In my collecting years, I have determined that original blue by weight must be one of the most valuable substances in existance, especially Colt original blue. Let us look at issued Single Action Armies. Assuming all matching numbers and no modifications, a martial SAA with no finish is worth approx. $3500. 20% original finish, approx. $6000, 50% original finish approx. $12,000, 75% original finish approx. $25,000, 95% approx. $40,000. 99%.....You tell me. My numbers may not be right on the button, but you get the picture. Those incremental percentages of finish, especially in the high percentage numbers are VERY valuable. In my experience this formula applies to all collector guns including Lugers. The more desirable the piece, the more valuable the original finish. These dollar numbers grow very large when discussing Paterson or Walker Colts or Henry Rifles and the only people who don't care about original finish are non-collector shooters.


My speciality is old style Lugers(dished toggles), and I am completely turned off to a refinished example. I would rather pass on a refinished rare example and wait for an original example even at a much higher price. These price deferentials make it imperative that a Luger collector develop the expertise to discern original from refinished examples so as not to be defrauded. Not all dealers will return your money for making a dumb mistake.


Ciao,


Bill S. (ALFA2NINE@aol.com)

[Johnny Peppers]

Bill, as a good example of how the last percentage of finish is the highest priced, a friend of mine bought an early Swiss Commercial a few years back that is the best example of any Luger that I have ever seen. If there truly is a 99% finish pistol, this one is it. He had his choice of the 99% pistol which had no bright showing on the pistol anywhere or a 97/98% finish that showed bright metal on the high points of the sideplate hump, the right side frame rail, and the end of the barrel. Only the hump on the sideplate and the right side frame rail showed scuffing but no bright metal on the 99% pistol. The difference in price was $1000, but with the two pistols side by side there was no doubt which one to buy. The condition of the pistol puts it in the extremely rare category.

[Uncle Mike]

Hi,I recently saw a Luger that was listed at 98% but the 2% was all in one spot not the high points.This is technically correct but I believe detracts from looks and price.M.C.