Captured from a German Officer

03-18-2002, 03:15 PM

The referenced phrase regarding Lugers is familiar. I've been doing a little thinking,(doesn't happen often) maybe the GI really thought he did get the gun from one. The experience of a 22 yr old in the military in 1942-45 was that only "officers" carried pistols. They did not have our perspective of the Wehrmacht nor in their 8-12 weeks of training prior to being shipped out would they most likely have any contact with officers. Remember the "a sergeant was God" mentality, officers were not even to be considered approachable in most cases. So who carried pistols? Officers. Doubtful if they could speak German to determine rank. If officers carried pistols then a pistol picked up anywhere had to have come from an officer.

Roadkill

Marvin · 03-18-2002, 03:36 PM

Roadkill,

In addition to what you said about the German Officers, may fail to think about the uniform of a German soldier. They had eppulets on the shoulders, ribbons and medals on their uniform. This was only on officer uniforms in the US Army. So an 18 year old US soldier who got a pistol from a German private with a heavy machine gun, may have looked like an officer. This is my reasoning for all the vet returns to have come from officers.

Marvin

03-18-2002, 03:48 PM

Correct. And in my Vietnam and most Army experience 99% of the guys walking around (if not MPs) with pistols were officers. All of the NVA/VC with pistols were considered officers. The smaller the pistol, the higher the rank. (there is a physical correlation to an officer's anatomy and his rank, ego increases and something else shrinks). Line officers learned quickly to carry rifles and go by a nickname and wear no outward sign of status- binoculars-pistol-rank insignia.

Roadkill

Kyrie · 03-18-2002, 05:20 PM

Hi Roadkill,

Remember also that in the German Army pistols were required for officers and (with some exceptions) not issued to enlisted men. If a US soldier captured a Luger from a German soldier in either War, the German soldier was most likely an officer.

Best regards,

Kyrie

Moderator - Cruffler_Forum on Yahoo Groups

"The flame free C&R Forum."

bill m · 03-18-2002, 05:35 PM

Hi Kyrie,

I beg to differ with you about enlisted men in the German Army not being issued a pistol. Lugers and P.38's were most certainly issued to enlisted men. How many million did they end up with in WWII anyway -- close to 2 million Lugers and P.38's alone, wasn't there? So you're saying there was at least 2 million officiers in the German Army? Ground crews at airports and machine gun crews were all officiers then? This is funny!

03-18-2002, 06:09 PM

I for one cannot speak for all of the WW-II GI's, but I for one had no problem spotting a german officer.

There bearing and attitude when captured was nothing short of rediculus, when ordered to throw down their weapons they usually spoke to an american GI as though they demanded the same respect and treatment as they would get from a german soldier.

SUPERISE !, SURPRISE !, They soon learened that the point of a bayonet looked very convincing when accompanied with a loud "MACH SNELL, SCHWINE HUND". a slap on a rifle and pointing to the ground

They usually responded quickly.

And then they screamed for an Officer to surrender to,

Funny, Funny Fellows !

ViggoG (WW-II Vet.)

Kyrie · 03-18-2002, 08:11 PM

Hi Bill,

Yes sir, with a few exceptions sidearms were not issued to enlisted men. Those exceptions include combat arm enlisted men whose duties didnÃ¢??t allow them to carry a rifle (artillery and machinegun crews are examples) and line of communication troops (supply troops, paymaster, military police, etc.). The enlisted infantryman was not issued a sidearm - that was German Army doctrine in both World Wars.

Regarding the two or three million pistols made during the Wars, remember the size of the armies involved. Germany lost over 250,000 men at Stalingrad alone, and fielded armies numbering in the tens of millions.

Best regards,

Kyrie

Moderator - Cruffler_Forum on Yahoo Groups

"The flame free C&R Forum."

Orv Reichert · 03-18-2002, 08:19 PM

Pistols were routinely issued to EM assigned to crew served weapons...and they used MANY MGs...[I think 3 MGs to a squad?] The folks carrying rifles also carried ammo and were to protect the MG crews. So:...many-many were issued pistols in lieu of rifles.

The Germans learned early on that crews are much more efficient than individual soldiers. It took us a long time to learn that! Often, they found, individuals would not even fire their weapons..but, the crew served weapons always worked at max. efficiency as each guy worried about what the others would think if they did not perform.

I am told that most officers liked to buy their own pistols. That way they did not have to carry one of the big ugly issued guns which had no 'status'. The PP and PPK were the ultimate status symbols, I am told.

Look at the surviving photos...how many officers do you see with large type holsters on their left hip?

Orv Reichert

MikeP · 03-18-2002, 09:41 PM

My father was in the 506th PIR-jumped into Holland and France-We had pics he took af a concentration camp they liberated-piles and stacks of corpses. He was in Austria for a time after the war and guarded Kesselring for a time-said it was all he could do to keep from butt-stroking the arrogant bastard.

He hated Germans til the day he died in 1956. There were some letters he wrote home that said "they should take a couple of these damn krauts out every day and shoot them."

Sometimes we fail to appreciate that 99% of all soldiers would have preferred not to have had to be soldiers. They simply rose to the occaision.

MikeP-

Remembering a few of them tonight-memories I would prefer not to have.

03-18-2002, 09:56 PM

I am a big fan of the German paratroopers. And from all of the fallschirmjager vets I have talked to, a P08 and P-38 were standard issue side arms for all paratroopers. Now yes, this could have changed later in the war, but from what I hear a large majorty of all fallschirmjager troopers, from EM all thu way up to Officer level had them.

Joe · 03-18-2002, 10:52 PM

Orv is correct, German officers did not as a rule carry P-08 or P-38s. Just look at all the available period photographs and the guys carring the Big pistols were most often the EM. The officers carried the smaller .32 or .380. The average GI did not understand the German command insignia, so they often were unaware most times of who the actual officers were. I once purchased a Mauser model 1914 from a vet's son who also had an actual photo of his father standing with the older "general", but looking at his shoulder board, the prisioner was actually a sergeant. The "story" always sounded better when the gun was taken from a General or a high ranking SS officer.

German paratroopers were all equipped with Lugers, [look at the period photos] as they jumped with their long arms unloaded, as a safety precaution. The P-08 was their only immediate protection when they hit the ground.

The Germans didn't consider the Luger to anything other than another military weapon. There was no specical "status" carring a Luger.

03-18-2002, 10:57 PM

I know that seeing foreign officers and enlisted, you never really knew what or what rank they were. You learn, but it throws you off!

Ed

03-18-2002, 11:07 PM

I am not at home, but in either Jones or Datig, there is a list of personnel (WW1 I think) of enlisted issued Lugers. Also, although there might be rules against carrying a pistol if you were an enlisted and supposedly not supposed to have one (this is the same with US), how many soldiers grabbed a pistol or had one shipped from home?

I'd rather get into trouble then not have a pistol on me in wartime! That was my feeling at least, and I don't think I was in the minority.

Ed

schwob · 03-19-2002, 10:09 AM

Sniper/observer teams were trained to examine enemy soldiers, especially what they were carrying. Rank emblems, binoculars, nicer uniforms, general appearence and how there were approached/addressed by others were often a clue to officer status. Good scopes, for the team was worth it's weight in gold.

Aaron · 03-19-2002, 04:27 PM

In volume IV of Whittington's "German Pistols and Holsters" there is a complete breakdown of pistols issued to most German army units. Here are a few examples:

INFANTRY COMPANY (1944)

Heer KStN number 131V for a Grenadierkompanie, dated 1 November, 1944, lists an authorization of 2 officers, 16 NCOs, and 101 men. Eleven issue pistol and holster rigs were authorized, but NONE were for officers. Both officers were obligated to utilize commercial pistols and holsters.

LIGHT INFANTRY COMPANY ON BICYCLES (1944)

2 officers, 21 NCOs, and 133 men. Eighteen issue pistol and holster rigs were authorized. Both officers were issued only machine pistols and were obligated to utilize commercial pistols and holsters.

FRONTIER PROTECTION ZONE

COMMUNICATIONS COMPANY MOTORIZED (1942)

4 officers, 39 NCOs, and 156 men. Eight issue pistol and holster rigs were authorized. All four officers received issue pistols and holsters. The platoon leaders were issued the machine pistols in addition to pistols.

These figures indicate that in the Wehrmacht, most pistols were issued to enlisted personnel. However, the majority of pistols used by the Kriegsmarine (about 75%) were of the pocket pistol type and were carried by officers.

This is a fascinating book which I highly recommend. The last I heard, Simpson still had a few copies for sale.

03-18-2002, 03:15 PM	#1
R. Grady/Roadkill Guest Posts: n/a	Captured from a German Officer The referenced phrase regarding Lugers is familiar. I've been doing a little thinking,(doesn't happen often) maybe the GI really thought he did get the gun from one. The experience of a 22 yr old in the military in 1942-45 was that only "officers" carried pistols. They did not have our perspective of the Wehrmacht nor in their 8-12 weeks of training prior to being shipped out would they most likely have any contact with officers. Remember the "a sergeant was God" mentality, officers were not even to be considered approachable in most cases. So who carried pistols? Officers. Doubtful if they could speak German to determine rank. If officers carried pistols then a pistol picked up anywhere had to have come from an officer. Roadkill

03-18-2002, 03:36 PM	#2
Marvin User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Upstate S.C. Posts: 1,132 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Captured from a German Officer Roadkill, In addition to what you said about the German Officers, may fail to think about the uniform of a German soldier. They had eppulets on the shoulders, ribbons and medals on their uniform. This was only on officer uniforms in the US Army. So an 18 year old US soldier who got a pistol from a German private with a heavy machine gun, may have looked like an officer. This is my reasoning for all the vet returns to have come from officers. Marvin

03-18-2002, 03:48 PM	#3
R. Grady/Roadkill Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Captured from a German Officer Correct. And in my Vietnam and most Army experience 99% of the guys walking around (if not MPs) with pistols were officers. All of the NVA/VC with pistols were considered officers. The smaller the pistol, the higher the rank. (there is a physical correlation to an officer's anatomy and his rank, ego increases and something else shrinks). Line officers learned quickly to carry rifles and go by a nickname and wear no outward sign of status- binoculars-pistol-rank insignia. Roadkill

03-18-2002, 05:20 PM	#4
Kyrie User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 757 Thanks: 0 Thanked 212 Times in 101 Posts	Re: Captured from a German Officer Hi Roadkill, Remember also that in the German Army pistols were required for officers and (with some exceptions) not issued to enlisted men. If a US soldier captured a Luger from a German soldier in either War, the German soldier was most likely an officer. Best regards, Kyrie Moderator - Cruffler_Forum on Yahoo Groups "The flame free C&R Forum."

03-18-2002, 05:35 PM	#5
bill m User Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 385 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	What? Hi Kyrie, I beg to differ with you about enlisted men in the German Army not being issued a pistol. Lugers and P.38's were most certainly issued to enlisted men. How many million did they end up with in WWII anyway -- close to 2 million Lugers and P.38's alone, wasn't there? So you're saying there was at least 2 million officiers in the German Army? Ground crews at airports and machine gun crews were all officiers then? This is funny!

03-18-2002, 06:09 PM	#6
Viggo G Dereng Guest Posts: n/a	Re: What About German Officers I for one cannot speak for all of the WW-II GI's, but I for one had no problem spotting a german officer. There bearing and attitude when captured was nothing short of rediculus, when ordered to throw down their weapons they usually spoke to an american GI as though they demanded the same respect and treatment as they would get from a german soldier. SUPERISE !, SURPRISE !, They soon learened that the point of a bayonet looked very convincing when accompanied with a loud "MACH SNELL, SCHWINE HUND". a slap on a rifle and pointing to the ground They usually responded quickly. And then they screamed for an Officer to surrender to, Funny, Funny Fellows ! ViggoG (WW-II Vet.)

03-18-2002, 08:11 PM	#7
Kyrie User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 757 Thanks: 0 Thanked 212 Times in 101 Posts	Re: What? Hi Bill, Yes sir, with a few exceptions sidearms were not issued to enlisted men. Those exceptions include combat arm enlisted men whose duties didnÃ¢??t allow them to carry a rifle (artillery and machinegun crews are examples) and line of communication troops (supply troops, paymaster, military police, etc.). The enlisted infantryman was not issued a sidearm - that was German Army doctrine in both World Wars. Regarding the two or three million pistols made during the Wars, remember the size of the armies involved. Germany lost over 250,000 men at Stalingrad alone, and fielded armies numbering in the tens of millions. Best regards, Kyrie Moderator - Cruffler_Forum on Yahoo Groups "The flame free C&R Forum."

03-18-2002, 08:19 PM	#8
Orv Reichert RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SW Washington State Posts: 339 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	German Officer Pistols were routinely issued to EM assigned to crew served weapons...and they used MANY MGs...[I think 3 MGs to a squad?] The folks carrying rifles also carried ammo and were to protect the MG crews. So:...many-many were issued pistols in lieu of rifles. The Germans learned early on that crews are much more efficient than individual soldiers. It took us a long time to learn that! Often, they found, individuals would not even fire their weapons..but, the crew served weapons always worked at max. efficiency as each guy worried about what the others would think if they did not perform. I am told that most officers liked to buy their own pistols. That way they did not have to carry one of the big ugly issued guns which had no 'status'. The PP and PPK were the ultimate status symbols, I am told. Look at the surviving photos...how many officers do you see with large type holsters on their left hip? Orv Reichert

03-18-2002, 09:41 PM	#9
MikeP User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: ILL Posts: 686 Thanks: 36 Thanked 452 Times in 198 Posts	Re: What About German Officers My father was in the 506th PIR-jumped into Holland and France-We had pics he took af a concentration camp they liberated-piles and stacks of corpses. He was in Austria for a time after the war and guarded Kesselring for a time-said it was all he could do to keep from butt-stroking the arrogant bastard. He hated Germans til the day he died in 1956. There were some letters he wrote home that said "they should take a couple of these damn krauts out every day and shoot them." Sometimes we fail to appreciate that 99% of all soldiers would have preferred not to have had to be soldiers. They simply rose to the occaision. MikeP- Remembering a few of them tonight-memories I would prefer not to have.

03-18-2002, 09:56 PM	#10
Mark N. Guest Posts: n/a	Re: German Officer I am a big fan of the German paratroopers. And from all of the fallschirmjager vets I have talked to, a P08 and P-38 were standard issue side arms for all paratroopers. Now yes, this could have changed later in the war, but from what I hear a large majorty of all fallschirmjager troopers, from EM all thu way up to Officer level had them.

03-18-2002, 10:52 PM	#11
Joe User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ohio Posts: 96 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: German Officers Orv is correct, German officers did not as a rule carry P-08 or P-38s. Just look at all the available period photographs and the guys carring the Big pistols were most often the EM. The officers carried the smaller .32 or .380. The average GI did not understand the German command insignia, so they often were unaware most times of who the actual officers were. I once purchased a Mauser model 1914 from a vet's son who also had an actual photo of his father standing with the older "general", but looking at his shoulder board, the prisioner was actually a sergeant. The "story" always sounded better when the gun was taken from a General or a high ranking SS officer. German paratroopers were all equipped with Lugers, [look at the period photos] as they jumped with their long arms unloaded, as a safety precaution. The P-08 was their only immediate protection when they hit the ground. The Germans didn't consider the Luger to anything other than another military weapon. There was no specical "status" carring a Luger.

03-18-2002, 10:57 PM	#12
66mustang Guest Posts: n/a	that makes sense... I know that seeing foreign officers and enlisted, you never really knew what or what rank they were. You learn, but it throws you off! Ed

03-18-2002, 11:07 PM	#13
66mustang Guest Posts: n/a	Re: German Officers I am not at home, but in either Jones or Datig, there is a list of personnel (WW1 I think) of enlisted issued Lugers. Also, although there might be rules against carrying a pistol if you were an enlisted and supposedly not supposed to have one (this is the same with US), how many soldiers grabbed a pistol or had one shipped from home? I'd rather get into trouble then not have a pistol on me in wartime! That was my feeling at least, and I don't think I was in the minority. Ed

03-19-2002, 10:09 AM	#14
schwob RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Coast of Maine Posts: 273 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Captured from a German Officer Sniper/observer teams were trained to examine enemy soldiers, especially what they were carrying. Rank emblems, binoculars, nicer uniforms, general appearence and how there were approached/addressed by others were often a clue to officer status. Good scopes, for the team was worth it's weight in gold.

03-19-2002, 04:27 PM	#15
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	Re: German Officers In volume IV of Whittington's "German Pistols and Holsters" there is a complete breakdown of pistols issued to most German army units. Here are a few examples: INFANTRY COMPANY (1944) Heer KStN number 131V for a Grenadierkompanie, dated 1 November, 1944, lists an authorization of 2 officers, 16 NCOs, and 101 men. Eleven issue pistol and holster rigs were authorized, but NONE were for officers. Both officers were obligated to utilize commercial pistols and holsters. LIGHT INFANTRY COMPANY ON BICYCLES (1944) 2 officers, 21 NCOs, and 133 men. Eighteen issue pistol and holster rigs were authorized. Both officers were issued only machine pistols and were obligated to utilize commercial pistols and holsters. FRONTIER PROTECTION ZONE COMMUNICATIONS COMPANY MOTORIZED (1942) 4 officers, 39 NCOs, and 156 men. Eight issue pistol and holster rigs were authorized. All four officers received issue pistols and holsters. The platoon leaders were issued the machine pistols in addition to pistols. These figures indicate that in the Wehrmacht, most pistols were issued to enlisted personnel. However, the majority of pistols used by the Kriegsmarine (about 75%) were of the pocket pistol type and were carried by officers. This is a fascinating book which I highly recommend. The last I heard, Simpson still had a few copies for sale.