Pure Speculation.......45 Lugers

G.T. · 02-06-2002, 09:30 AM

Hi to all! THE FOLLOWING IS PURE SPECULATION! A lot has been written about the DWM .45's, on this forum and elsewhere. As it seems that only two of the original pistols now exsist, one can only speculate om how many were produced originally! I have read reports that list the possibility of up to six! Lets take a look at how many a manufacture would make today, if they were going into a head to head compitition with the best in the world! A lot of pride would have been at stake, with the contract as a juicy prize for the victor! First, you would have a prototype, this may be a crude example, but it would certainly have to exsist! Second, you would have to have a unit for parts commonality and interchangability (drafting & design), this again could be an unmarked or unserialed pistol, but would be dimensionally perfect! Third, in house test piece, this could be one or several, function and/or failure tests, balistics, proof limit testing (tool room guns)...this could amount to five or six units even before the test pieces...there could even be more departments that I am unaware of? Ammunition procurement? they certainly would need the unit to devolope a special .45 cartridge as has been documented....That brings us to the Test pieces themselves...do you think they would do all the work that it takes to tool up and build luger parts for just two or three pistols? I don't think so, I would have to believe they had an eye to the future, and would have built some dedicated tooling and fixtures for a possible contract or commecerial market! Remember, they didnt have the German army contract as of yet...so, if you build the dies to forge frames, your going to stamp out more then three! Same for the toggle, receiver, etc....I don't believe the pistols were made one at a time, out of a solid block of steel, if you had any hope at all of winning the contract, you would be devoloping parallel tooling program along with the pistols....So, either you spent one hell of a lot of time and money for two or three finished units, or, you stamped out a few more to cover your bases, maybe six to ten units for the tests! All that would be left, is spare parts, of which, I'm sure there were many. A few pistols could have been thrown together from parts. Now we have to also realize that they probably had a limit to their program, and if the returns on their effort proved to be to little, they would stop....I would speculate for a project of this type, they cold have produced, or had the ability to assemble, a total of 20 to 30 units! When your producing parts in a semi production prototype mode...10 to 20 is not too bad, a hundred is like a life sentence! After losing the competition, did they destroy all the remaining inventory? Is there .45 Lugers in some collections in Europe? What would their serial no.'s be? Is there a box of .45 Luger parts setting in the forgotten corner of some old dusty gun shop? Stranger things have happened! This brings to mind one of my rules of life, " Rare and elusive, but ever present!" Ok Guys! Fire away!! till....later...G.T.

02-06-2002, 11:13 AM

There is the possibility that the 45 cal is one of those that John Martz turned out several years ago. I had the opportunity to see one of them when I visited him in the late 80's. He was workking on a .357 Luger at the time but was having a real problem with the recoil.

Ron Wood · 02-06-2002, 12:25 PM

Dont forget about the Wyatt conversions also. I think he built around a dozen .45 with a fixed magazine which you had to load from the top. That way, he didn't have to stretch the frame like Martz does.

02-06-2002, 12:46 PM

GT, I have thought about this also, but I am more inclined to believe there were maybe 10 to 20 pistols, with 10 a good number. During testing, they would want 2-3 weapons (minimum, with six sounding logical to me).

My reasoning is that just 20-30 years before there were many gunsmiths that made their own parts and guns. John Browning for one, although for models, he would sometimes use other guns and adapt them (his first automatic was based on a Win 30-30 or like model).

Many gun manufacturers / smiths would toss out those pieces of pre-production after showing their guns. I do think some jigs would have been used, and have never (of course, ) looked at the two real .45's in the US. One is documented as having been from the tests, the other has rumors of having been brought "back" by a GI? If so, I would think there would be a couple more.

I can just imagine some older guy or his son, taking out his Luger once a year and popping off a box of .45 rounds! And thinking very little about it, to them it is just a war trophy and they happened to make it in .45!

I have always heard stories and such of Thompson 9 mm's during the war. So it is obvious to me that many GI's would just think it was odd, but common...

Ed

JAMES · 02-06-2002, 02:48 PM

I've heard of the 9mm tommys, and also of 7.92mm BAR's

02-06-2002, 04:00 PM

Didn't serial #14 make a brief appearanceafter WW2?

Terry Foley

Johnny Peppers · 02-06-2002, 04:53 PM

Remember that only two of the .45 Lugers were originally sent to the US Ordnance Department for preliminary tests. After the preliminary tests, the Ordnance Dept. recommended that 200 of the .45 Cal Lugers be purchased for field tests along with the .45 Colt and the.45 Savage . Preliminary negotiations were proceeding when DWM decided not to accept the order for the 200 pistols.

There is no evidence that DWM tooled up to make the .45 Luger, and the fact that they declined the order for 200 pistols further enforces this. The pistols had the initials of Georg Luger on the back of the toggle, which seems to indicate that the pistols were hand built specimens. DWM probably felt that the deck was stacked against them in having to compete with a US company like Colt, the Model 1900 had not been well received by the troops in the field, and also DWM had large contracts for the Model 1906. Additionally, they may have already known that the German army was about to adopt the 9mm pistol. It would be understandeable that they would not want to tool up to make a completely different pistol they were fairly well certain they would never get a contract for.

Should you ever have the chance to see the .45 Luger in the Norton Gallery, it is worth your time to see it. Once you see it there is no doubt that it is of DWM manufacture and absolutely original.

02-06-2002, 05:10 PM

Johnny, I would love to see the .45 Luger at Norton Gallery. Do you have to request special permission? Or is it on display?

Also, I know the confusion on more than 2 Lugers being made is that the serial numbers on them aren't 1 and 2.

In Walter's book and Jones (or is it Datig), it goes into detail about the testing, but I don't remember it saying there were only two made? (Of course I have CRS {can't remember uhhh, stuff})

Ed

Herb · 02-06-2002, 06:03 PM

66Mustang, your memory is not all that bad. The book was Datig's "The Luger Pistol" in it Datig does state that only two Lugers came to the U S for military testing. He has a picture of pistol #2 on page 103, at that time it was in the collection of Sidney Aberman, P.O. Box 4645, Pittsburg 6, PA. He surmises that pistol #1 was probably destroyed during or following the tests. The Gov. later ordered 200 45 Lugers from Tascher but Luger refused to make them.

Orv Reichert · 02-06-2002, 06:50 PM

I have personally held and examined a BAR in 7,92x57...it was marked made in Poland by Radom.

Orv Reichert

Johnny Peppers · 02-06-2002, 06:51 PM

The pistol is on display at all times as far as I know. The gallery has a great collection of Remington and Russell bronzes and paintings also.

It may also be pure speculation that there were only two of the .45 Lugers delivered to the Ordnance Department. The surviving correspondence of the day makes reference to "the pistol", "the barrel", and "the arm" as if only one pistol is being tested. The pistol was subjected to several severe tests, and we know that one pistol survived in excellent condition. One of the tests was to place the pistol in a solution of sal ammoniac for 5 minutes and then letting the pistol set for 22 hours. It was noted that the magazine was rusty. There just seems to be no evidence that any more pistols were involved.

JAMES · 02-07-2002, 01:08 AM

I've often hear that the 8mm BAR's and 9mm tommys were used for "commando" and other special forces operations behind enemy lines. Also, they were delivered to resistance fighters. I think the STEN would make more sense than a 9mm tommy, though. Would it be out of the realm if the Germans did the same with there weapons, making a 45 luger?

Orv Reichert · 02-07-2002, 01:15 AM

There was a 9mm kit for the American 'Grease gun' AKA the M3A1. It used sten mags, I am told.

Orv Reichert

02-07-2002, 01:47 PM

For a gov't to produce a larger version, it just wouldn't make sense. You can make a smaller diameter barrel and adjust feeding / magazine and such, but I guess the tommy / sten etc., would make more sense being 9mm than a .45 Luger, but I'll keep my eyes open at the Jacksonville gun show this weekend!

Ed

JAMES · 02-08-2002, 01:15 AM

I agree, it wouldn't make much sense, but the germans did make a lot of weird weapons that made little sense, such as the right-angle gun.

02-06-2002, 12:25 PM	#3
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	Re: Pure Speculation.......45 Lugers Dont forget about the Wyatt conversions also. I think he built around a dozen .45 with a fixed magazine which you had to load from the top. That way, he didn't have to stretch the frame like Martz does.

02-06-2002, 12:46 PM	#4
66mustang Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Pure Speculation.......45 Lugers GT, I have thought about this also, but I am more inclined to believe there were maybe 10 to 20 pistols, with 10 a good number. During testing, they would want 2-3 weapons (minimum, with six sounding logical to me). My reasoning is that just 20-30 years before there were many gunsmiths that made their own parts and guns. John Browning for one, although for models, he would sometimes use other guns and adapt them (his first automatic was based on a Win 30-30 or like model). Many gun manufacturers / smiths would toss out those pieces of pre-production after showing their guns. I do think some jigs would have been used, and have never (of course, ) looked at the two real .45's in the US. One is documented as having been from the tests, the other has rumors of having been brought "back" by a GI? If so, I would think there would be a couple more. I can just imagine some older guy or his son, taking out his Luger once a year and popping off a box of .45 rounds! And thinking very little about it, to them it is just a war trophy and they happened to make it in .45! I have always heard stories and such of Thompson 9 mm's during the war. So it is obvious to me that many GI's would just think it was odd, but common... Ed

02-06-2002, 02:48 PM	#5
JAMES User Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Lynn, Mass. Posts: 42 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Pure Speculation.......45 Lugers I've heard of the 9mm tommys, and also of 7.92mm BAR's

02-06-2002, 04:00 PM	#6
Terry A de C Foley Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Pure Speculation.......45 Lugers Didn't serial #14 make a brief appearanceafter WW2? Terry Foley

02-06-2002, 04:53 PM	#7
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Pure Speculation.......45 Lugers Remember that only two of the .45 Lugers were originally sent to the US Ordnance Department for preliminary tests. After the preliminary tests, the Ordnance Dept. recommended that 200 of the .45 Cal Lugers be purchased for field tests along with the .45 Colt and the.45 Savage . Preliminary negotiations were proceeding when DWM decided not to accept the order for the 200 pistols. There is no evidence that DWM tooled up to make the .45 Luger, and the fact that they declined the order for 200 pistols further enforces this. The pistols had the initials of Georg Luger on the back of the toggle, which seems to indicate that the pistols were hand built specimens. DWM probably felt that the deck was stacked against them in having to compete with a US company like Colt, the Model 1900 had not been well received by the troops in the field, and also DWM had large contracts for the Model 1906. Additionally, they may have already known that the German army was about to adopt the 9mm pistol. It would be understandeable that they would not want to tool up to make a completely different pistol they were fairly well certain they would never get a contract for. Should you ever have the chance to see the .45 Luger in the Norton Gallery, it is worth your time to see it. Once you see it there is no doubt that it is of DWM manufacture and absolutely original.

02-06-2002, 09:30 AM	#1
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,485 Thanks: 1,283 Thanked 3,581 Times in 989 Posts	Pure Speculation.......45 Lugers Hi to all! THE FOLLOWING IS PURE SPECULATION! A lot has been written about the DWM .45's, on this forum and elsewhere. As it seems that only two of the original pistols now exsist, one can only speculate om how many were produced originally! I have read reports that list the possibility of up to six! Lets take a look at how many a manufacture would make today, if they were going into a head to head compitition with the best in the world! A lot of pride would have been at stake, with the contract as a juicy prize for the victor! First, you would have a prototype, this may be a crude example, but it would certainly have to exsist! Second, you would have to have a unit for parts commonality and interchangability (drafting & design), this again could be an unmarked or unserialed pistol, but would be dimensionally perfect! Third, in house test piece, this could be one or several, function and/or failure tests, balistics, proof limit testing (tool room guns)...this could amount to five or six units even before the test pieces...there could even be more departments that I am unaware of? Ammunition procurement? they certainly would need the unit to devolope a special .45 cartridge as has been documented....That brings us to the Test pieces themselves...do you think they would do all the work that it takes to tool up and build luger parts for just two or three pistols? I don't think so, I would have to believe they had an eye to the future, and would have built some dedicated tooling and fixtures for a possible contract or commecerial market! Remember, they didnt have the German army contract as of yet...so, if you build the dies to forge frames, your going to stamp out more then three! Same for the toggle, receiver, etc....I don't believe the pistols were made one at a time, out of a solid block of steel, if you had any hope at all of winning the contract, you would be devoloping parallel tooling program along with the pistols....So, either you spent one hell of a lot of time and money for two or three finished units, or, you stamped out a few more to cover your bases, maybe six to ten units for the tests! All that would be left, is spare parts, of which, I'm sure there were many. A few pistols could have been thrown together from parts. Now we have to also realize that they probably had a limit to their program, and if the returns on their effort proved to be to little, they would stop....I would speculate for a project of this type, they cold have produced, or had the ability to assemble, a total of 20 to 30 units! When your producing parts in a semi production prototype mode...10 to 20 is not too bad, a hundred is like a life sentence! After losing the competition, did they destroy all the remaining inventory? Is there .45 Lugers in some collections in Europe? What would their serial no.'s be? Is there a box of .45 Luger parts setting in the forgotten corner of some old dusty gun shop? Stranger things have happened! This brings to mind one of my rules of life, " Rare and elusive, but ever present!" Ok Guys! Fire away!! till....later...G.T.

02-06-2002, 11:13 AM	#2
Cachehunter Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Pure Speculation.......45 Lugers There is the possibility that the 45 cal is one of those that John Martz turned out several years ago. I had the opportunity to see one of them when I visited him in the late 80's. He was workking on a .357 Luger at the time but was having a real problem with the recoil.

02-06-2002, 05:10 PM	#8
66mustang Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Pure Speculation.......45 Lugers Johnny, I would love to see the .45 Luger at Norton Gallery. Do you have to request special permission? Or is it on display? Also, I know the confusion on more than 2 Lugers being made is that the serial numbers on them aren't 1 and 2. In Walter's book and Jones (or is it Datig), it goes into detail about the testing, but I don't remember it saying there were only two made? (Of course I have CRS {can't remember uhhh, stuff}) Ed

02-06-2002, 06:03 PM	#9
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Pure Speculation.......45 Lugers 66Mustang, your memory is not all that bad. The book was Datig's "The Luger Pistol" in it Datig does state that only two Lugers came to the U S for military testing. He has a picture of pistol #2 on page 103, at that time it was in the collection of Sidney Aberman, P.O. Box 4645, Pittsburg 6, PA. He surmises that pistol #1 was probably destroyed during or following the tests. The Gov. later ordered 200 45 Lugers from Tascher but Luger refused to make them.

02-06-2002, 06:50 PM	#10
Orv Reichert RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SW Washington State Posts: 339 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	8mm BAR I have personally held and examined a BAR in 7,92x57...it was marked made in Poland by Radom. Orv Reichert

02-06-2002, 06:51 PM	#11
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Pure Speculation.......45 Lugers The pistol is on display at all times as far as I know. The gallery has a great collection of Remington and Russell bronzes and paintings also. It may also be pure speculation that there were only two of the .45 Lugers delivered to the Ordnance Department. The surviving correspondence of the day makes reference to "the pistol", "the barrel", and "the arm" as if only one pistol is being tested. The pistol was subjected to several severe tests, and we know that one pistol survived in excellent condition. One of the tests was to place the pistol in a solution of sal ammoniac for 5 minutes and then letting the pistol set for 22 hours. It was noted that the magazine was rusty. There just seems to be no evidence that any more pistols were involved.

02-07-2002, 01:08 AM	#12
JAMES User Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Lynn, Mass. Posts: 42 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: 8mm BAR I've often hear that the 8mm BAR's and 9mm tommys were used for "commando" and other special forces operations behind enemy lines. Also, they were delivered to resistance fighters. I think the STEN would make more sense than a 9mm tommy, though. Would it be out of the realm if the Germans did the same with there weapons, making a 45 luger?

02-07-2002, 01:15 AM	#13
Orv Reichert RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SW Washington State Posts: 339 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	9mm conversion There was a 9mm kit for the American 'Grease gun' AKA the M3A1. It used sten mags, I am told. Orv Reichert

02-07-2002, 01:47 PM	#14
66mustang Guest Posts: n/a	Re: 8mm BAR For a gov't to produce a larger version, it just wouldn't make sense. You can make a smaller diameter barrel and adjust feeding / magazine and such, but I guess the tommy / sten etc., would make more sense being 9mm than a .45 Luger, but I'll keep my eyes open at the Jacksonville gun show this weekend! Ed

02-08-2002, 01:15 AM	#15
JAMES User Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Lynn, Mass. Posts: 42 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: 8mm BAR I agree, it wouldn't make much sense, but the germans did make a lot of weird weapons that made little sense, such as the right-angle gun.