History of Police Safety Sear Installation

[jags]

I'm curious to get some history and timeline of what may have happened to my 1917 Luger. My Luger is dated 1917 however the barrel and extension have been reblued and the numbers do not match the rest of the gun. It also has a sear safety. The grip frame has police markings and had been fitted with a mag safety that is no longer there.

I figure it's a WWI military produced gun that then went to the police force. It was "recalled" sometime in the 30's to have the safetys installed. Here are my questions;

1. Would the gun have been issued to the Police and the Police markings stamped on the grip frame before or after the gun was recalled to have the safetys installed?

2. If they were issued to the police after the safety install and grip frame markeing, where were they between the end of WWI and the time of the refit?

3. Would the gun have the sear safety installed and then have the barrel/extension reblued at the same time? Why was the rebluing neccessary? Would they then possibly rebuild the pistols with mismatching barrel/extension to the rest of the gun?

4. If these guns where recalled from police forces and already had the police markings, how did they insure they got back to the same police force after the refit?

I'm just curious on the entire timeline and history of how and why many of these guns went from military to police and how and why so many of these pistols have ended up with mismatching numbers.

Any insight or direction to an information source online would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!

[Don M]

Eric, welcome to the forum.

Without good photos or a detailed description of your gun, we can't be very definitive about that particular weapon. However, many Lugers manufactured in the late stages of WWI were transferred to various police forces soon after the war. Many of these received the 1920 government property stamp and unit markings on the front grip strap. Sear and magazine safeties were not installed until about 1934. Magazine safeties were removed or disabled about 1937. Your gun should fit this general timeline.

[jags]

Don,

Thank you for the info. Yes all of that I have already read and I understand. I'm not just asking about my specific piece but more in general terms, as I like to see the "Big Picture" first.

My Luger does not have the additional 1920 Stamp so it never went back into military service after WWI. Makes sense as it went to police service shown by the police stamps.

So you are saying it would have been put into police service soon after WWI and at that point received the police marks? And then later they would have been "recalled" to have the safetys installed?

OK, if that is the case then what about my other questions?

3. Would the gun have the sear safety installed and then have the barrel/extension reblued at the same time? Why was the rebluing neccessary? Would they then possibly rebuild the pistols with mismatching barrel/extension to the rest of the gun?

4. If these guns where recalled from police forces and already had the police markings, how did they insure they got back to the same police force after the refit?

This then begs another question:

5. What arms did the police forces use during the time when their weapons had been recalled for the refit?

I guess I really haven't found much info on the how, what, and why of the safety recall and refit. Is there any info on that part of history that I can be told or directed too on the internet?

Again any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!

[Edward Tinker]

Things are not as simple as lugers went from WW1 to the police or army.

Some were placed into storage, some destroyed, some went to the army, some to the police. Many were issued years after they were put into storage (and had been hidden from the allied forces).

The 1920 is a gov't marking, and is coincidental for being on a police luger. Not all lugers received the 1920 stamping, officers who owned lugers did not receive unit stamps or the 1920 marking, and those lugers hidden by the military may or may not have received the marking.

There are good books that talk about the safety installs and you can do searches on the forums about them.....

If your top does not match the bottom, then it is not correct. If for some reason it had been 'swapped' out before the retrofit, then it would have been matched up then. Lugers did not leave the peace time armory without the gun being all matched.

Ed

[jags]

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

Some were placed into storage, some destroyed, some went to the army, some to the police. Many were issued years after they were put into storage (and had been hidden from the allied forces).

So that answers my question about what could have happened after WWI ended. They where probably stamped and issued to the police after the war and could have been in storage, or not, for some time before being issued.

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

If your top does not match the bottom, then it is not correct. If for some reason it had been 'swapped' out before the retrofit, then it would have been matched up then. Lugers did not leave the peace time armory without the gun being all matched.

That answers part of question 3. They would not refit the pistol and then send it out with mismatched numbers.

What about the remaining questions. Any insight?

3. Would the gun have the sear safety installed and then have the barrel/extension reblued at the same time? Why was the rebluing neccessary?

4. If these guns where recalled from police forces and already had the police markings, how did they insure they got back to the same police force after the refit?

5. What arms did the police forces use during the time when their weapons had been recalled for the refit?

Plus one new question:

6. If they always made sure that the pistols had correct and matching numbers before they were dispatched, how and why did so many of these Lugers end up in America with mismatching numbers?

Again any help with these basic questions would be appreciated. I have been searching this forum and the rest of the internet but haven't been able to find much "general" information regarding these questions.

Thanks again!!

[Edward Tinker]

see below
What about the remaining questions. Any insight?

3. Would the gun have the sear safety installed and then have the barrel/extension reblued at the same time? Why was the rebluing neccessary?
IT DEPENDS, IF THE GUN NEEDED A NEW BARREL, THEN A NEW BARREL WAS ADDED, IF IT RECEIVED A MAGAZINE SAFETY, IT NEEDED TO BE REBLUED. A FACTORY OR ARMORY SHOULD NOT BE CONFUSED WITH A USA GUNSMITH REBLUE (ONE WHO DOES NOT KNOW WHAT HE IS DOING, NOT SOME OF THE LUGER SMITHS HERE ON THE FORUM)
4. If these guns where recalled from police forces and already had the police markings, how did they insure they got back to the same police force after the refit?
US ARMS ROOMS SEND OFF GUNS TO THIS DAY AND GET THEM FIXED AND SENT BACK TO THE UNIT, JUST PROPER PAPERWORK...
5. What arms did the police forces use during the time when their weapons had been recalled for the refit?
THE OLDER REVOLVERS, OR SENT THEM IN BATCHES AT A TIME AND WERE USING SOMETHING ELSE, I AM NOT 100% POSITVE ABOUT THIS, COULD BE MANY FACTORS....
Plus one new question:

6. If they always made sure that the pistols had correct and matching numbers before they were dispatched, how and why did so many of these Lugers end up in America with mismatching numbers?
TO MAKE GUNS FOR SALE IN THE USA, MANY NON-WORKING GUNS WERE PUT TOGETHER TO GET THEM WORKING; THIS HAPPENED IN GERMANY, IN THE USA, OVERSEAS BEING SHIPPED HERE ETC. MANY, MANY REASONS THIS HAPPENED, IT SIMPLY DID. SOME WERE BY GI'S, BUT I BELIEVE MANY WERE BY DISTRIBUTORS TRYING TO GET WORKING GUNS.

[jags]

Edward,

Thank you for your great answers! That really helps to clear things up.

One thing though. You stated: IF IT RECEIVED A MAGAZINE SAFETY, IT NEEDED TO BE REBLUED.

Why would the barrel/extension need to be reblued after a magazine safety refit? I can understand it maybe needing rebluing after a sear safety refit as there is some working on the extension to fit the sear safety. Any other details on the procedure involved for the safety refits?

Also I presume that once the barrel/extension gets mismatched to a different frame, you can never know what year the frame came from. Or is there a way to date the frame without a matching year dated barrel?

Thanks again for all this great info. It's really helping to make the "Big Picture" a lot clearer!

[alvin]

Why did German cancel the added-on magazine safety after it's massively applied? I heard it did not work anyway, so German cancelled it later. Is that true? If true, how could German gun masters do something as wrong as this?

[jags]

Originally Posted by alvin

Why did German cancel the added-on magazine safety after it's massively applied? I heard it did not work anyway, so German cancelled it later. Is that true? If true, how could German gun masters do something as wrong as this?

From what I read that is correct. The "added-on" magazine safety never worked very well. So it was eventually scraped. Some had the entire piece removed and others they simply cut off the part that would sit behind the trigger and keep it from moving when the safety was engaged.

I guess it's hard to engineer something new as an "add-on" that will work well. Although the sear safety "add-on" seems to work just fine.

[Edward Tinker]

Yes, you are right the sear safety would require only a bit of reblue, if needed, the mag safety reblue would be the lower, sorry about the confusion.

The myth of the Germans never making a mistake is a bit silly, everyone makes mistakes, many times the paper or the bureaucracy would say something was great and it wasnt

[jags]

Thanks again Edward.

Can you comment on my other question?

I presume that once the barrel/extension gets mismatched to a different frame, you can never know what year the frame came from. Or is there a way to date the frame without a matching year dated barrel?

Thanks

[Edward Tinker]

Yes and no, Mauser frames have a hump (see FAQ) while some like Erfurt would be stamped, as would Simson Lugers, a guess by the serial number and suffix would give you a guess...

[jags]

Thanks again Ed!!

My Luger is a DWM with matching numbers on everything except the barrel and extension. Of course the barrel has the 1917 date on it. Any way to date the frame?

I understand that the serial numbers started new every year and with only 4 digits they added a new letter suffix every time it went past 9999. That would mean that every year there would be one identical numbered gun as every other year. Since only the barrel had the year stamp on it, is there any way to date the frame since the barrel is incorrect to the frame? Were there any frame markings that would identify the year?

Thanks again for all your help on this!

[alvin]

Was the magazine safety add-on designed by Fritz Walther?

[Don M]

I doubt that installation of either a sear safety or magazine safety required any rebluing. Clearly, the barrel extension was not reblued at that time because the brad holding the safety on is always in the white unless the gun was reblued later. The cut in the frame for the mag safety would not have required rebluing of the frame.

The magazine safety was designed by Walther.

[Edward Tinker]

Don, I see your point, I was talking about touch up, and not a full reblue for install.

The magazine safety required drilling, have you seen many that were still installed (cut but installed) and the hole was in the white?

After being taken off, they were either left in place or they were welded shut, if welded, that would require some kind of touch up or reblue.

[Don M]

Ed, I have not specifically looked for any evidence of rebluing of either the slot or the hole for the mag safety but am going on recalled appearance and logic. It might be a good topic for someone to research. I agree about the need for a touch up if the slot was welded or brazed closed.

I think jags has parts of two different police Lugers. Like you, I think it very unlikely that they were put together by a police arsenal without force matching the serial numbers. It would be interesting to know if the brad on the sear safety of jags' Luger is blued. If so, the bluing of the upper happened sometime after the safety was installed.

[jags]

Thanks for all the input!!

Here's a pic that might help with the discussion:



Is there anyway to date a military frame without the barrel date?

Thanks again!

[Edward Tinker]

Originally Posted by jags

Is there anyway to date a military frame without the barrel date?

Thanks again!

You can 'guess' by the serial number and suffix....

[jags]

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

You can 'guess' by the serial number and suffix....

How would that work since every year they started all over again with the same numbers and letter suffixes?