10000 serial numbered guns

MarkC · 05-08-2017, 07:41 PM

Guys,

This may be a sensitive topic since common belief from older books and collectors was that Lugers and P.38's were made in 9999 blocks with a letter added for the next 9999.

However emperical evidence has shown up over the last 10 years with the availability of information and photos posted on websites like this that the guns were made in 10000 blocks, when the stamping machine turned over to 0000 a 1 was stamped to make the serial number 10000.

For a large factory making guns in 10000 blocks was easier to keep on a ledger for inventory purposes.

So presented here is Spreewerk P.38 guns serial number 1h and 10000h the begining and end of the block. Much harder to collect than consecutive numbered guns. In my opinion it is the only set in existance

The P.38 community has accepted the fact the guns were made in 10000 gun lots, several 10000 serial number pistols and mags have been reported over the last few years from Walther, Mauser and Spreewerk.

An AC41 mag has been shown so we know Walther was making these guns in 10000 lots as early as 1941.

Enjoy the Spreewerk gun serial 1h and 10000h, the 1h gun is a Russian capture I got from FGS in 2000 but how many guns serial number 1 have you ever seen or 10000?

Also notice the additional "h" on serial number 1h was stamped in the exact location of 10000h and restamped in the correct location for 1h. Must have been a "rookie" worker after the serial numbers went from 10000g to the "h" block and then restamped ... not "bounce" struck!

Several Lugers have also show up with serial number 10000 and number 1.

Mark

Ron Wood · 05-08-2017, 08:07 PM

Wonderful! That is way beyond cool.
Ron

George Anderson · 05-08-2017, 08:54 PM

Very nice. I've seen a G-date Luger with a 10000 serial number.

Edward Tinker · 05-08-2017, 09:31 PM

Mark, I am one who says 9999 - it is not something I am invested in, just easier to say. I have not owned a 10k one but have seen 9999 and 10000 ones, more so P38.

My personal belief is simply that sometimes it was 9999 and the next was 1 and sometimes it was 10000 and then 1 --- My feeling is based on there not being a lot of either, nor have I seen documentation on it.

that said, I do not mind saying 10,000 and then #1

MarkC · 05-08-2017, 09:55 PM

Ed,

You and I go back a long time and there is not much written about the 10000 serial numbered guns or the 1 numbered guns.

I used to also believe serial ranges ran to 9999 but for a large factory making guns in 9999 ranges and randomly stamping a 1 in front does not make much sense?

It is more logical to believe 0000 is not a serial number so 10000 is a block number. No 0000 guns have ever turned up but the stamping machines went to 0000 when they turned over.

10000 lot guns are easier to keep track of, the Germans were meticulous about records and adding a 1 randomly doesn't make sense.

So that is all I have but I think the evidence is clear here ... 1 serial numbers as rare as 10000 and I firmly believe they were made in 10000 lot blocks

Mark

Edward Tinker · 05-08-2017, 11:23 PM

Mark, I am more convinced than I was yesterday - good research

DonVoigt · 05-09-2017, 08:35 AM

Just an "interesting" bit of trivia, the Japanese produced their rifles in blocks of 10,000; but they started at "0" and went to "9999", then added a character in a circle to the beginning to mark the next block- similar to the letter suffix. Yes, "0" number rifles are known.

I have no doubt that the Germans also produced 10k pistol blocks, starting from #1 and to 10,000.

Quite logical.

abukafura · 05-09-2017, 09:48 AM

To have two pistols in the same block, beginning and end of serial block, is simply unbelievably lucky. I thoroughly enjoyed seeing these treasures. Thanks for sharing them with us.

George Anderson · 05-11-2017, 11:23 AM

Here's one with two matched mags. Owner wants to sell but not yet.

sheepherder · 05-11-2017, 12:09 PM

It's funny how we gun collectors always seem to get our toes in the pictures of our guns...I've noticed this on about 5 forums; never fails to break me up...

George Anderson · 05-11-2017, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepherder

It's funny how we gun collectors always seem to get our toes in the pictures of our guns...I've noticed this on about 5 forums; never fails to break me up...

Not my toes. I use nail polish.

abukafura · 05-11-2017, 12:39 PM

George....this is one really nice looking Luger. Not only does it have the truly great serial number, but condition is superb as well. AND...it is a G DATE with two matched mags. Do not let it get away from you.

Don M · 05-11-2017, 01:55 PM

From what I've read, it seems that Mauser went to 10000 with Lugers but did DWM, et al.?

SteveM · 05-11-2017, 05:45 PM

IIRC there is a K date out there with a 10K serial number.

SteveM · 05-13-2017, 08:50 AM

Mag at Simpson's

http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...fafaddc985c472

05-08-2017, 08:07 PM	#2
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	Wonderful! That is way beyond cool. Ron __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

05-09-2017, 08:35 AM	#7
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,677 Thanks: 1,440 Thanked 4,348 Times in 2,038 Posts	Just an "interesting" bit of trivia, the Japanese produced their rifles in blocks of 10,000; but they started at "0" and went to "9999", then added a character in a circle to the beginning to mark the next block- similar to the letter suffix. Yes, "0" number rifles are known. I have no doubt that the Germans also produced 10k pistol blocks, starting from #1 and to 10,000. Quite logical. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

05-11-2017, 11:23 AM	#9
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,772 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	Here's one with two matched mags. Owner wants to sell but not yet. Attached Thumbnails

05-11-2017, 12:09 PM	#10
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,182 Thanks: 1,398 Thanked 4,440 Times in 2,328 Posts	It's funny how we gun collectors always seem to get our toes in the pictures of our guns...I've noticed this on about 5 forums; never fails to break me up... __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

05-11-2017, 01:55 PM	#13
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	From what I've read, it seems that Mauser went to 10000 with Lugers but did DWM, et al.? __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

05-08-2017, 07:41 PM	#1
MarkC User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 478 Thanks: 1 Thanked 109 Times in 26 Posts	10000 serial numbered guns Guys, This may be a sensitive topic since common belief from older books and collectors was that Lugers and P.38's were made in 9999 blocks with a letter added for the next 9999. However emperical evidence has shown up over the last 10 years with the availability of information and photos posted on websites like this that the guns were made in 10000 blocks, when the stamping machine turned over to 0000 a 1 was stamped to make the serial number 10000. For a large factory making guns in 10000 blocks was easier to keep on a ledger for inventory purposes. So presented here is Spreewerk P.38 guns serial number 1h and 10000h the begining and end of the block. Much harder to collect than consecutive numbered guns. In my opinion it is the only set in existance The P.38 community has accepted the fact the guns were made in 10000 gun lots, several 10000 serial number pistols and mags have been reported over the last few years from Walther, Mauser and Spreewerk. An AC41 mag has been shown so we know Walther was making these guns in 10000 lots as early as 1941. Enjoy the Spreewerk gun serial 1h and 10000h, the 1h gun is a Russian capture I got from FGS in 2000 but how many guns serial number 1 have you ever seen or 10000? Also notice the additional "h" on serial number 1h was stamped in the exact location of 10000h and restamped in the correct location for 1h. Must have been a "rookie" worker after the serial numbers went from 10000g to the "h" block and then restamped ... not "bounce" struck! Several Lugers have also show up with serial number 10000 and number 1. Mark Attached Thumbnails

05-08-2017, 08:54 PM	#3
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,772 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	Very nice. I've seen a G-date Luger with a 10000 serial number.

05-08-2017, 09:31 PM	#4
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	Mark, I am one who says 9999 - it is not something I am invested in, just easier to say. I have not owned a 10k one but have seen 9999 and 10000 ones, more so P38. My personal belief is simply that sometimes it was 9999 and the next was 1 and sometimes it was 10000 and then 1 --- My feeling is based on there not being a lot of either, nor have I seen documentation on it. that said, I do not mind saying 10,000 and then #1

05-08-2017, 09:55 PM	#5
MarkC User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 478 Thanks: 1 Thanked 109 Times in 26 Posts	Ed, You and I go back a long time and there is not much written about the 10000 serial numbered guns or the 1 numbered guns. I used to also believe serial ranges ran to 9999 but for a large factory making guns in 9999 ranges and randomly stamping a 1 in front does not make much sense? It is more logical to believe 0000 is not a serial number so 10000 is a block number. No 0000 guns have ever turned up but the stamping machines went to 0000 when they turned over. 10000 lot guns are easier to keep track of, the Germans were meticulous about records and adding a 1 randomly doesn't make sense. So that is all I have but I think the evidence is clear here ... 1 serial numbers as rare as 10000 and I firmly believe they were made in 10000 lot blocks Mark

05-08-2017, 11:23 PM	#6
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	Mark, I am more convinced than I was yesterday - good research

05-09-2017, 09:48 AM	#8
abukafura Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Northeast Wisconsin, near Greeen Bay Posts: 327 Thanks: 1,314 Thanked 89 Times in 57 Posts	To have two pistols in the same block, beginning and end of serial block, is simply unbelievably lucky. I thoroughly enjoyed seeing these treasures. Thanks for sharing them with us.

05-11-2017, 12:39 PM	#12
abukafura Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Northeast Wisconsin, near Greeen Bay Posts: 327 Thanks: 1,314 Thanked 89 Times in 57 Posts	George....this is one really nice looking Luger. Not only does it have the truly great serial number, but condition is superb as well. AND...it is a G DATE with two matched mags. Do not let it get away from you.

05-11-2017, 05:45 PM	#14
SteveM User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,016 Thanks: 94 Thanked 275 Times in 137 Posts	IIRC there is a K date out there with a 10K serial number.

05-13-2017, 08:50 AM	#15
SteveM User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,016 Thanks: 94 Thanked 275 Times in 137 Posts	Mag at Simpson's http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...fafaddc985c472