Overstamped Serial Number?

[mrerick]

Hi,

I just bought a 1936 Mauser S/42 Luger P-08.

It is all correctly numbered. Appears to be original rust finish.

I believe it is a bring-back that has been in the possession of the veteran up until this point.

Upon close inspection, I found that on the frame above the trigger guard, the location for the first digit of the serial number was apparently accidentally stamped with the second digit of the serial number, then overstamped with the correct first digit of the serial number.

The final overstamped number matches that on the receiver and the barrel. The size and font (sans serif) of the first digit looks the same as the barrel and receiver stamp.

The witness mark between the receiver and barrel is original and lined up.

The gun is correct in all aspects. Un-numbered grips. Finish wear approximately the same on all parts.

E/63 E/63 MTP proof marks on receiver. It's in the middle of the "i" block.

While I'm sure this is uncommon, has this kind of thing been seen on other Mausers of that period?

What would it do to the value of the gun overall?

I don't have pictures yet, but can post them shortly.

Marc

[LugerVern]

Yes, it does happen, usually in hidden locations.
Reversed numbers are observed pretty often, then corrected.


I have a gun that has the underside of the toggle like this, obviously a human error.

We need to be careful not to push this too far however and the parts really need to show the correct age.

So many faked guns now days, sad but very true.

Vern

[mrerick]

I'll get some photos up. I'm new to this, but I think that the age of the finish on the frame matches that of the barrel, receiver and drive train. I can see similar deep surface rust present in all the faces I inspected.

Since the numbers on other Lugers I have don't always line up exactly (some are high, low and the kerning between them varies) I have always assumed that each individual number was stamped with a separate die at Mauser. Can this be confirmed?

Joop has subsequently let me know that they believe the serial number dies were manually stamped by Mauser at first, then a machine (I suppose similar to an old hand stamp numbering machine) was built that would increment the number automatically after two strikes - one on the frame and the other on the receiver.

Since the kerning (space between digits) is inconsistent and the characters are not level, I wonder if they were still manually stamping individual dies in 1936. This gun should have been manufactured in April that year.

Marc

[John Sabato]

looking forward to the photos Marc... make sure the ones of the serial number overstamp are in good lighting, close-ups (use macro mode) , and in sharp focus so we can evaluate your theory...

[mrerick]

Here are pictures of the 1936 S/42 Mauser s/n 5308i

First left and right full views:





Next, the drive train:



Here are closeups of the serial number areas. First receiver, then the barrel and then frame:







As you can see, the first digit "5" is deeply stamped over "3".

I've asked for any early documentation that may exist.

Also another oddity... The S/42 stamping is of the type done for 1935 "G" dates. Joop and Don document a very small number of 1936 guns that got these toggles.

Other aspects of the Luger appear correct (to my inexperienced eyes)... The side plate has no stampings on the inside. All numbered parts match properly. The parts finishes don't appear messed with. The grips are un-numbered and fit exactly. The receiver is a very smooth tight fit on the frame - to the extent that I could feel the viscosity of light grease on the rails.

The overstamp 5 isn't precisely lined up with the bottom of the 3. Also the digits across the serial number are all slightly out of horizontal alignment.

I know anything is possible on a "boost", but if this is one, someone went to a lot of trouble to find a frame ending in "308" that is period correct. Receiver DE/63 DE/63 MTP proofed and accepted. The stock lug has the correct Mauser holes.

Here are pictures of the inner frame rear and front:





So, any and all help is appreciated! I'm in learning mode here.

Marc

[John Sabato]

The "5" is exactly the same font as the other numbers on the frame. I concur in the consensus that this was a factory overstamp IMHO and whatever weight that carries... .

[mrerick]

John, thanks for your review and comments.

I tend to agree (of course, just buying it I WANT to agree!)...

I'm hoping we get a look at inside stamps on other 1936 frames to see if similar inspection marks are present.

In any case, I like the pistol, and it is my first Rust Blued Mauser!

Marc

[Ardennes]

It is easy enough to see how the lead digit was struck as "3" in error at the factory and then overstamped with "5" in order to make the serial number correct. Seeing that the second digit is a "3" also, makes this error easily understandable. Nothing more than an honest error in the manufacturing process. I think it adds personality to the pistol.
It makes you think about it a little more. Be prepared, however, for the outcries of those who are of the mind that all Lugers that left Mauser were perfect in every respect. The belief that Nazi quality control was so exacting removed the possibility of any human errors and gave Mauser workers the ability to "Walk on water" if you will. No gun ever left Mauser with overstamped numbers, un-numbered axel pins, grips one number off ... ever. These are most likely eBay winnings added far after production. So don't be surprised to hear "Boosted" or "Fake" used to describe anything other than a perfect piece. Perhaps it is, but perhaps not. It's all part of the hobby. I believe the overstamp occured at birth, for what it's worth. Congratulations, 1936s can be a tough year to find. You own a beautiful example.

[mrerick]

Ronald,

Thanks for your encouraging words. I like this 1936 and plan on keeping it for many years.

So far, I've encountered the odd one other time in Luger collecting. I've got one of a very small number of out of sequence "42" year military proofed Lugers with a Mauser Banner toggle!

This pistol was probably manufactured in April as the Spring weather arrived in Oberndorf. I can imagine a worker who's focus was on the beautiful weather and not the dies in his hand... At least, that's what I'd like to think!

Marc

[LugerVern]

This is a great gun to discuss.
Especially for some beginners, early Mauser guns often have mixed fonts, on this gun all 4 numbers 5308 differ from the barrel and frame. What this says is that the manufacturing process at Mauser was different than at DWM or at the very least the serializing was.

This separate serializing would tend to increase the number of human errors between stamping of different parts at different times.

I really don't have much of a problem with this gun.

Vern

[rhinemann]

Hi Marc,
I couldn't help noticing that the "3" on the barrel and the slide both have a flat top and on the frame the "3" is rounded at the top. I thought the style of the stamps should be the same. Also the "0" on the frame is more square in shape compared to all the other "0" s stamped on the pistol. This could possibly just a illusion on my part looking at your photos. I hope others more familiar than myself will add comments regarding the mixed number fonts.

Best Regards,
Jeffrey

[Norme]

Hi Jeffrey, The variation in the #3 fonts has been an issue all the way back to WW1 DWMs. It's just one more unsolved Luger mystery. Here's a photo of my 1936 S/42. Regards, Norm

[rhinemann]

Hi Norm,

Thank you for clearing up my question on fonts. I am always a little suspicious at looking at fonts and stamps. Its too easy to get burned buying some of these pistols. That's why I am here - to learn as much as I can from you folks.

Best Regards,
Jeffrey

[mrerick]

Jeffery,

Thank you for your observation. You are correct.

The "0" on the frame is wider and more squared than the more oval shaped zero on the barrel and the receiver.

The "3" on the frame is rounded at the top rather than angled as is on the barrel and receiver.

I checked some other Lugers I have and found that the typography of a 1940 "42" code and 1942 Banner match on the receiver and frame, both having the angled "3" and the oval "0".

A DWM 1923 Commercial I have has a rounded "3" and oval "0" on the barrel and frame.

(Now I'm glad I have the book).

I checked in Hallock and Joop's "The Mauser Parabellum" and found the following:

On page 135 a 1936 S/42 in the "o" block has a rounded "3" on the frame and an angled "3" on the receiver. The receiver and barrel have serifs, and the frame is sans-serif.

On page 149, an 1937 S/42 is shown with a rounded sans-serif "3" and squared "0" on the frame and an angled serif "3" and oval "0" on the barrel and receiver.

Similar typography is on page 172 showing a 1938 S/42 in the "m" block.

These dies match those used on my 1936 S/42 in the "i" block....

So, it looks like different dies were used on the frame up to a point where identical fonts were used (at least 1941 and after)...

- - - - -

This is starting to feel like following bread crumbs through a forest!

Marc\


(Norm, saw your post after I had entered this. Thanks for your photo... )

[rhinemann]

Hi Marc,
Thanks for your update listing the page numbers in Don's and Joop 's book. My copy should be showing up any day now. Guess I need to read some more to be better informed...

Best Regards,
Jeffrey

[Edward Tinker]

I tend to agree with all above, it is just that any "differences than the norm" tend to lower the value / get folks wondering when it comes to sale time.

Of course, I have seen some "horse trraders" at work and the old saying (paraphrased) is that "how come my luger is worth $500 on my table and once bought, now on your table its marked at $1500?"

[mrerick]

Ed,

I tend to agree about the impact on sales values. Anything departing from "normal" is suspect.

I bought this from a dealer that had it on consignment. This belonged to the consigner's father who is deceased. I've asked him to check with the last owner to find any type of documentation that might go with the gun. Bring back papers, licenses, etc... It's a shot at trying to determine an early date that reflects the serial number.

- - - - - - - -

Jeffery,

As I'm new to this, I feel at risk to those that would improperly modify a Luger. When I bought this one, I hadn't seen the over-stamping in the pictures. The reference books and our senses are our only defense.

It was actually good to be able to make use of the reference so soon.

Just last month I saw first hand how Lugers are mis-represented. At our local Raleigh gunshow, a seller showed up with some very high priced guns. Each one of them had been messed with, including refinishing and an improper re-crown (it was squared). When I asked how to get in touch with him after I'd had a chance to check my reference books, he wouldn't share contact information. He said he was "visiting from California and returning the next day..."

- - - - - - - -

I just did the "needle in a haystack" calculation. Assuming all serial numbers in the ranges were used (and all of them survived the war), here are the numbers.

The frame is rust blued, highly polished, and has a 130mm (Mauser extended) length - the ears are reinforced without the hump.

This frame could only appear on "K", "G" and 1936 date Lugers. Toward the end of 1936 production, the polishing wasn't as complete, and in early 1937 the transition to Salt Blue had taken place.

There are 3 to 9 frames that could have a "*308" or "*308a" ending serial number in the "K" date period, with the last 6 occurring in the transition to "G" dates.

The "G" date and 1936 date range is from 352a to 6438q.

There are 154 frames in these years that could have a "*308a" through "*308q" ending serial number, and less if you eliminate those that were not highly polished.

So, at most, there could be 156 frames that could have been used to force match to the receiver. 148,750 Lugers were manufactured in the "K" "G" and 1936 years. That is about .1 percent (just over 1 out of a thousand) that could have been candidates.

A fair percentage of the early Lugers manufactured with a serial number ending in "*308*" were destroyed and lost during the war - particularly during the Stalingrad campaign.

I guess that the statistics say unlikely, yet they lie since all you'd have to do is come across the right one...

Marc

[Ardennes]

I agree that "differences than (what we consider) the norm" should not increase the $$ value of a piece. Those with more experience than myself could probably tell some very interesting stories of "Snake Oil Salesman" trying to pass such things as one-of-a-kind. Please note, I do not mean to imply that anyone in this thread is trying to do that. We are evaluating a very interesting piece. Mr. Tinker is correct. People should wonder about it because it is this wonder that causes us to apply our intellect to our hobby. It is this wonder that gets our "research blood" boiling. Look at the number crunching Marc has done. Would that have occured if the piece had not been double struck?? Therein lies the true increased value of these pieces. They make us wonder, think and work thereby enriching the hobby for all of us. Those who would flatly label these pieces "boosted" or "fake" run the risk of missing out on some very interesting research. Yes, we must be on the look-out for Luger "creativity" but keep in mind that the "If I don't know about it, it can't be real" mind set can erode this field also. The only difference is the mechanism.

[wlyon]

42 1940 frame rounded 3 all rest flat top 3
byf 41 round top 3 on frame flat top 3 rest.
This seems to be the normal especially on 3's. Many years ago I passed on a nice Mauser because of this difference. An old time Mauser collector set me straight several years later. I have a Krieghoff that is correct in all aspects. The rear toggle inside has an overstruck number. Correct font bluing correct. I have no problem with this at all. They were not perfect. Bill

[tau-delt]

I am a firm believer that there were Monday mornings and Friday afternoons in Germany. Over the years I have owned 3 Mausers....... 2 military and one Banner .. where the safety bar number was one digit off. One I know was a bring back and it was a complete rig. The others were both in excellent condition and IMO all original to include matching mags.

If I find a gun that is otherwise not messed with something like this would not bother me a lot.

You do get to defend them and perhaps you invite "issues" down the road should you ever decide to sell.