Luger Cache w/US GIs during WWII

[Mike78]

Any WWII vets out there who can put into context the relative value of a Luger souvenir versus a P38 during the war? Were Lugers encountered more or less than P38s overseas? Were there any Luger variations sought out more than others and were "matching numbers" important at that time? I would guess that many Lugers were aquired as stakes during card games. What was there relative value versus other souvenirs that served as poker stakes?

Mike M

[Frank]

Hi Mike, first, I am not a WWII Vet!! But I would venture a guess that the Luger would have been more well known in the US at the start of the war, so that was probably the first choice for a war souvenir.

I doubt that the average GI would have any idea about the variations, nor the numbering system at this stage of the game. A Luger is a Luger!!! Military Mauser Lugers weren't sold in the US prior the the end of WWII and Fred Datig's Book is the first real reference for these pistols written after WWII.

My father-in -law is an ETO WWII vet and he told me that many returning GIs dropped their wartime souvenirs in the "drink" in NYC when they were warned about the consequences of being caught with weapons that didn't have the proper authority (bring back papers).

I was talking to a 5th Army WWII Vet just last Monday. He was in the North Africa and Italian campagines and told me that he liberated a P.38 from a German Officer that was surrendering. He was stationed in Germany after the German surrender and sold his trophy to a Russian for something like $600!!

[Navy]

My Dad, who passed away last year was a W.W.II vet who served in North Africa and Europe. I had several conversations over the years about souvenirs. I remember very clearly his telling me that in Dec '44 when the Ardennes offensive kicked off, the rumor among the GIs was that should they be captured and found in possession of a Luger or P-38, they were subject to immediate execution. He said many, many souvenir guns were unceremoniously discarded as a result.

Tom A

[Brent B.]

Mike:

My father was in the Canadian Army during WW2 and I remember he told me he had picked up a couple Lugers during the war. After the fighting was over they were doing occupation duty in Holland and he traded them away for some liquid refreshment. He did bring home a CZ39 with holster which I still have but have wished many times he'd kept the Lugers.

Brent B.

[Mike78]

Thank you all for your stories. My Dad was a kid during the war and he played with the dufflebag full of German loot his uncle brought back from the war (except for the P38s, Lugers, and other firearms, of course).

Keep the stories coming - they are very enjoyable.

[Ron Smith]

My dad served in the Pacific, but one of my friends dad was with Patton's armor. He was the driver of a White half-track with a mounted 105mm howitzer (like the one in Kelly's Heros). We used to look at his photos. One was of the crew sitting around the half- track in front of a German Tiger that they had just knocked out with a direct hit in the engine. The name painted on the half-track was "The Bouncin' Bitch".

He told us that Lugers were fairly common. And that most of them wanted to find either a P.38 or P.35 Hi-Power , because the magazines were easier to load.

[Steinar]

My gandma found what she described as a Luger (could also be P38) under a bush or three in the forest shortly after the germans surrender. It was more or less shameful item to have (could indicate any relationship with the german soldiers), so my grandfather hid it away somewhere on his farm..
Eighter he did a VERY good job hiding it, or it got lost during the years. Because today I own the farm, and it's still gone. Closest I got to finding it as a kid, was finding some 9mm rounds.. ..and that's how a non-pistol shooter became a Luger collector
I would be suprised if anyone payed much attencion to matching # post ww2, before they became collective items.

[apis mellifera]

My grandfather has a Luger, which I aways assumed he brought back. I asked him about it during Christmas and was surprised to learn that it was brought back by his father-in-law. He said his group wasn't allowed to bring anything back. My other grandfather was on a ship on his way to the south pacific when Japan surrendered. When they finally got there, they were told to gather up enemy supplies and material. He brought back two swords and an Arisaka rifle. Unfortunately, one of the swords was used as a pry bar to open crates so the scabbard has a dent in it. I gathered that war trophies were plentiful and if you wanted something specific, you could get it. I can't speak for other GIs, but I know my grandfather treasures his Luger to this day (and won't part with it!)

[tudorbug]

I recall after the end of World War II, perhaps in the fall of 1945 or spring of 1946, traveling with my father from our home in Moriah, New York to his mother's home in nearby Port Henry, located on Lake Champlain, to see his brother, Uncle Ned, who had returned from World War II service in Europe. The occasion was the arrival of perhaps two wood crates that Ned had shipped from Germany back to Port Henry. Other brother David may have also been present.

I clearly remember the open crates with the parallel barrels of long guns. While I don't recall all of the weapons included, there were at least two Mauser K98k's, one of which went to my father and one retained by Uncle Ned. Eventually both went through conversion to sporting rifles with bluing and hand made and hand checkered stocks. I have my fathers, a beautiful job on a DOU 44 rifle with mis-matched numbers (and I have to admit I very much wish it were still in its orginal military configuration with matching numbers). Uncle Ned's was also rebarreled to .220 Swift to become a wood chuck gun.

Also in the crates was Mauser pistol of the 1910 variety and I don't recall the exact Model and there was a Luger S42 1937 and a P38. These pistols, Luger included and well as other World War II memorablilia, are in the hands of Uncle Ned's daughter, my cousin, who resides in Minnesota.

But, there's more. In the crates was a Schmeisser machine pistol; I think. It was the kind that had the magazine sticking out to the right of the receiver. There were two bipod mounted machine guns, one belt fed and one fed form a drum mounted on top of the receiver. The belt fed gun was probably an MG42.

These automatic weapons had been sent from Germany to Uncle David who was then a teen ager and were registered in his name. They had their barrels welded by folks at Watervliet Arsenal which is near Albany, New York.

Now, fast foward to the 1960's and 1970's. The machine pistol is not in the best of condition, so Uncle Ned, then residing in Cleveland simply put it out in the weekly garbage pickup. Neighborhood children spotted it and were shortly playing war games with it. Understandably, this bought the BATF to Uncle Ned's door. I was not there but I assme the conversation went on about the machine pistol with no mention of the two bipod mounted machine guns, now lightly coated with rust sitting in the attic.

Now, fast forward to the middle to late 1990's. Uncle Ned died in 1982. Aunt Elaine resides in their log cabin near Cabot, Vermont and she asks Uncle David, now retired in Keeseville, New York to meet her at a between location. He does. There, she opens her trunk and gives him both machine guns.

Uncle David is now embarked on the "How do I get rid of them effort, an effort backed up by little knowledge, but he does learn that, believe it or not, they are both still registered with BATF still in his name. He considers dropping them in the deep water of Lake Champlain and he ends up giving them to a museum. The museum, it develops, cannot keep them. He takes them back and turns them in to the nearby New York State Police Post.

And there went thousands of dollars in usable parts. If I had only known or had been living close enough to have gotten involved..............

[Johnny C. Kitchens]

Are you sure it was a Schmeisser??? STENs have their magazines out the side...

[Mike78]

Keep the stories coming - I love them!

[tudorbug]

Johnny:

Yes, I am sure it was a Schmeisser. I am not sure that the magazine protruded from the side.

David

[danman]

I have been lucky enough to inherit a lot of WW1 and WW2 gear being the only nut in the family, from my Great Grandfather, Grandfather and Great Uncle.

When my Grandmother sold off her parents house I was a teenager, and helped her clear out things. I spent most of the time in the very big dark seller where I found a treasure trove: rusted MP40, ammo, magazines for al sorts of autos....I knew there would be more.

THen, upstairs in the house there was a stroreroom. I open a big old cupboard where I found several hunting rifles but more to my teenage, war movie influenced taste, a big metal box. The box was filled with thick congealed grease but in it.....2 Lugers, 1 Beretta, 2 S&Ws, a Webley, and a Haenl Shmeisser .25.

Although the house had been used by Luftwaffe officers in WW2 I think were trophies that my Great Uncle had picked up.

All I have now are a few mementos. The guns all disappeared though I do have photos form the time over 20 years ago when by boyhood dreams came true.

BTW I took the rusty MP40 with me. My father found it and threw it into the sea!

[Shark]

My grandfather was a P-38 Lightning pilot. He did a lot of trading around and amassed a big collection of guns. When he loaded up to come home from Germany in October '45, he put the guns in a duffle bag, realized he couldn't even lift it, and just gave away most of them. He brought back a beautiful PPK with holster, mint, and a broomhandle Mauser. The squadron photographer got that broomhandle out of my grandfather's stuff when they were coming back through camp in New Jersey. He fired the wrong sized round in the broomhandle (probably a 9mm) and ruined the barrel. Every chance I would get as a kid, I'd sneak into my grandfather's bedroom alone, get that PPK out of his sock drawer where he kept it, and play with it. A warning to me now with little ones of my own. My grubby little hands spotted the front grip strap a bit I'm afraid.

He always said when he came back he could only bring in two pistols, so he gave a third to his buddy Bob to take into the States for him. Bob never got around to giving it back and kept it 50 years. My grandfather couldn't remember what it was. In '94 I was so curious about what the gun was I asked my grandfather to ask for it back. Guess that was selfish of me-after all Bob had it for 50 years! Bob happily shipped the pistol to my grandfather, along with a cute note reminding him to remember his WW2 pistol training. We opened the box together-could it be a Luger? It turned out to be a FN Browning 1910/22 with holster. Bummer, but I wouldn't take a zillion dollars for any of them.

[waltherguy]

Well.. this is not really a Vet bring back gun story... per-say. I have had the great fortune of meeting a local gentleman who retired as a 4 star U.S. Army General (I will keep his name private). He served under General Patton in Africa and told me a story of Him as a young officer being in charge of keeping a group of German POW's busy. For amusement, he had them goose step through the allied camp on their way out to a work detail of some sort. Just at that time General Patton is driving by and as he put it "Chews me not one, but two new one's." And Patton said something along the lines of "you better act like an officer, or the next time Germans are marching in this camp, you'll see Rommel driving behind them and you'll be the one heading out to a work detail." He also said when General Patton got upset, he screamed in a very High pitch voice. Just a Fascinating man.. what an honor to have met him on several occasions. Of course I asked him if he brought any guns back.. Said he had 2 Lugers.. And both were stolen from his home many years ago.

[Mike78]

Don't stop - keep them coming! I know a local gentleman who is in his 80s and runs a local business. He landed at Normandy and fought in the Battle of the Buldge (in fact, he is mentioned by name the book "The Longest Day" I will see if I can get some stories from him.

Cheers,

Mike

[Railsplitter]

From a letter dated Saturday, April 28, 1945, Germany

" I've got a Jerry pocket watch now, but it's not so hot. I had plenty of loot in my pockets the night those Jerries almost caught us. Loot was flying every which way. Everybody was throwing away Jerry watches, rings, bracelets, pens, pencils, coins, guns - anything that was Jerry property. So you can see how hopeless the situation looked. The Lord was with us again, as usual. I kept my pistol, but had it ready to heave when the time came".

[Shawn v. Il.]

Great stories here guys !
My Dad was able to acquire a Luger temporarily . He served as a machine gunner (water cooled 30) in the 7th Inf. Rgt. of the 3rd Infantry Division 1944-45 . As he told the story ,(and he did not like to talk much of his experiances) , they were in action somewhere in the Colmar Pocket area of France . He said they had caught and engaged the Germans as they were pulling out of a small village . He and his MG crew went into some sort of gymnasium/auditorium type building and it was full of German backpacks all lined up Dress-Right-Dress . He said they didn't have much time but started going through some of the packs, he was hoping to find a set of German Binoculors. Instead he found a Luger and a sock full of bullets. As he was doing this he said they could see the Germans through the window outside running around and all hell was breaking loose so they had to get out PDQ !
After the action was over he said he tagged the pistol with his name and turned it in to the Company Cook who put the pistol in the Company Chest . This in tured may have saved his life since he was no longer in posession of the gun when on March 15 , 1945 in the German town of Uttweiller, and during a fierce counter attack by elements of the German 17th SS Division ,Dads battalion was virtually wiped out and he and the survivors were taken Prisoner Of War . So Thank God he didn't have that pistol on him when those SS guys captured him !
Fast forward to 1995 . For Dads birthday I bought 1916 DWM matching along with a box of ammo which I put in a woolen sock and presented it to him , Telling him " Here ya go Dad I found your Luger !" The smile on his face was priceless !
Dad passed in 1998 .
Thank you for letting me share with you this story of My Dad , Cpl. John Thomas Grear ,and His Luger.
Shawn

[policeluger]

Thank you for that wonderful story Shawn....all have been great reading

[RylanBrissette]

Cool stories guys, my grandpa was also in world war 2. He was with the canadian air force and unfortunatly had a desk job, because he was color blind.