Really big Luger question!!

[Dennis]

I am currently reading "The Luger Story" by John Walter. From What I read, the Luger was the greatest thing since sliced bread. It almost beat out the 1911 as the US service pistol. (Gee, Adolf would have LOVED that one!!! [img]wink.gif[/img] ) And, if kept clean and fed ammo it likes, it is a great pistol. So, why not use it as a defensive weapon??? Is the design THAT defective??? I can't see Deutschland going through two wars with a lame pistol!!! What about Swissland??? They seemed to like it. Heck, they used it up till 1949!!! I know there are better designs out there, but on the other hand, I see it in the same light as a mousegun. If that's all you have... Comments please!!!

[Bud]

I don't think the luger can be ruled out as a defensive pistol. I think the usual lines are that it has no high capacity magazine, and the fact that it is a foreign designed gun, and then the usual problems with some forms of ammo.
I think that in some way, that since there is no rearward moving slide, like on most semi-auto pistols, that could be an advantage in some defensive situations, like if you had the back of the pistol tight against your chest, or inside a coat or jacket. Imagine shooting a gun that has a rearward moving slide, where the slide suddenly hangs up in your pocket or bashes your ribs just as your are trying to defend yourself.
And then, the handle is small enough to work excellent in someones' hands that are small or have short fingers, like my fingers that make large handled guns very hard to shoot.
I carry concealed a CZ 50, a double action .32 acp, and too many people would scoff at that gun as a defensive pistol as too small a round, gun too large and heavy, only eight rounds capacity, but hey, it conceals fine, shoots great, and it is not really that heavy.
I think it is all about what works, and when I get my six inch luger all back together after rebarreling, I can tell you it may be a home/business defensive gun, meaning if a dirtbag comes to get me or my family members, I figure that extra long barrel is going to be just like AT&T, I am going to be able to reach out and touch someone, even if the dirtbag is beyond my comfortable pistol shooting distance of 50 meters.

[Roadkill]

A major determining factor in a firearm's success is being adopted by a government entity or police force for use. Without WWI the Luger's history would have been different. It was the best at the time with the best projectile. And it was replaced by more reliable firearms as they became available. There is no question that the 1911 is a better combat weapon than the Luger. There is also no question in my mind that the Luger is possibly the best engineered pistol ever put into production. It doesn't make it the best combat weapon. For home defense or a carry gun, that's different. Do you keep a round in the chamber counting on a 60 year old safety system (at best)to keep it from going off? Either that or chamber a round when required. Keep the Luger on the wall and on the range where it belongs. Get a modern double action or 12ga for home defense. Just my humble opinion.

RK

[Herb]

Another opinion. I think the reason the German military went to the P38 was that the Luger was much more expensive to produce due to the many parts and fine tolerances. The US Army did the same thing, replaced the Thompson SMG with the Grease gun, as the greaser only cost NINE dollars to manufacture and was a whole lot more simple to replace parts on. One thing I dislike about the Luger is that it is a bear to load a magazine if you are in a hurry, such as in a combat situation. The P38 loads easily just like any modern pistol.

[wterrell]

I agree, Herb, that the cost of production of the Luger was a major consideration in its replacement. There were even some stamped, sheetmetal looking guns tried.

[AGE]

Roadkill,

I agree with you, the Luger is neeeat and finely engineered, but far from the best combat weapon. One problem is the AWKWARD safety and the hard to grab toggle. If the Luger is carried with a loaded chamber, cocked and locked, you have to rely on a 100 year old safety to keep it from firing and you have to disengage the AWKWARD safety to fire it. If it is carried with chamber empty you have to work the toggle (maybe in a hurry) to fire it. An 1873 Colt single action is faster than a Luger for the first shot.

The 1911 has a much more effective cartridge and can be carried with chamber empty (the slide is pretty easy to rack) or loaded (cocked and locked). The safety is easy to release. Actually, for exposed military carry, I would prefer a 14 shot Para Ord. P-14. (It's a big big gun, but what a weapon.)

The double action 40s are great defense guns, but a little big for carry. Many small single stack double action 9mms (that are reliable with hollow points) probably make the best concealed weapons.

[Jimbo]

There is nothing wrong with using a P08 for self defense.

It it the best? No.

Glocks, Sigs and others are smaller, lighter, as accurate and is more reliable. No beveled magwell. Toggles are not as "user friendly" clearing a jam. Safety is awkward. No double action first shot -- potential for accidental discarge. Blueing is not particularly corrosion resistant. Some Lugers cannot handle a steady diet of +P or +P+ ammunition without fears of breakage. Lastly, if you shoot someone in self-defense the police may never give you your Luger back.

No reason you couldn't use a Luger for self defense but with so many exceptional handguns available in a variety of calibers why would you?

[Roadkill]

Good points, my overall favorite modern handgun would be a CZ 75. Big, 16rds, double action, flawless in operation, very accurate. Personal carry gun: Walther PP .32. For me the right combination of size, reliability, double action, firepower, and accuracy. Better to be undergunned and have it than leave it at home cause of size.


RK

[MarkC]

I think the Luger is too big for concealed carry also too heavy. I carry a gun under my shirt always and, gotta tell you, extra weight is uncomfortable. After many years and trying many guns to carry, I settled on a plain old revolver. My choice is the S & W model 640 (hammerless and DAO) in stainless steel loaded with Federal 115 grain 357 magnum hollowpoints. I may only have five shots but I can make them count!

[Thor]

A good 45 Auto or a 4" 357 Magnum is the best defense in a pistol. A shotgun is a good weapon but may be a little unweildy at close range and could make using the phone to call the police a problem, assuming you havent already fired it!!!ANY pistol STANDARD jacketed pistol round will SAIL through the walls of a house, so I prefer something on the order of a glaser safety slug in a good 357 wheel gun, they have LESS problems with reliablity and if you are traveling just switch to 125 gr HPs as you might actually need the penetration on the road. A Luger FMJ will go through 8" of wood and not put that much energy into the torso so if you are restricted to a 9mm make darn sure it can function with a good HP like a Silvertip or Golden Saber round.

[Thor]

AND.....if I know somebody is really out to get me, I would have my H&K 45 Compact on my hip and one of these in my hands. REally good weapons! <img src="graemlins/offtopic.gif" border="0" alt="[offtopic]" />

[Dennis]

Good comments!! I carry a variety of defensive pistols. My main one is the Glock 36. I do respect the .45ACP!!!! [img]wink.gif[/img] However, I have been known to carry a P38 or one of it's variants such as the P5 or Beretta 92FS. [img]smile.gif[/img] My favorite Luger variant is the Ruger MK-II. Hey, give me a break!! I just shot my 1936 Mauser clone today!! What a rush!!! 15 yard head shots!!! It works very well with 115gr PMP and 115gr PMC. I plan to try it with Federal 115gr "Classic" Hi-Shoks. I'll let you know!!! [img]wink.gif[/img] It's olgive is much like FMJ and it might work!!!

[Thor]

Dennis, I have also found pretty good feeding of Winchester Silvertips and Remingtons Golden Sabers, they both have a good long OAL and are the right shape, especially the silvertip, both are excellent expanders as well. I once took out a diamond back rattler intent on nibbling on my leg with a CCI Shotshell in my 1918 DWM, Lugers can be very comforting to have around for sure! <img src="graemlins/a_smil17.gif" border="0" alt="[blabla]" />

[kidvett]

Opinions of a LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER on carry guns:

SERVICE GUN: WALTHER P99QA W/ WIN 147gr SXT HP ammo( department furnished )

FAVORITE BACK UP GUNS ( depending on situation ):
* BERETTA 950B 25 ACP
* WALTHER PPK 32 ACP
* COLT AGENT 38 SPL
* S&W Mdl 66 357 MAG

FAVORITE OFF-DUTY GUNS ( depending on situation ):
* S&W Mdl 39-2 9MM ( an old favorite )
* GLOCK 19 9MM
* COLT 1911 45's
* S&W Mdl 29 44 MAG ( for the winter )

To me LUGERS & P-38's are for COLLECTING...except some shooters....

kidvett [img]cool.gif[/img]

[Bud]

Yeah, don't get me wrong, not like I am going to run over and pick up my Luger and a trusty mauser GEW 98 long(very long) rifle every time I need to defend myself if ever, anywhere.
I am engaged in the local anti drug use citizens volunteers, and one never knows if someone might come a knockin with guns or such to shut up the good citizens, but if they positioned themself above my home, where I would be boxed in, I might not be inclined to use my AK 47 rifles to defend myself and family in a firefight to get that oh so special armed and firing dirtbag positioned up the hill 50 to 75 yards away, cause neighbors are just over the rise, and down the way, so a 9mm pistol that can reach out easily over 50 meters is kind of appealing, since I wouldn't want an AK round sailing over to the Jones', but 9mm round won't make it.
Technically, I keep a eight round capacity Mossberg 500 magazine loaded only at the ready at all times just in case of "incursions".
Now all I need to do is get me a shooter Artillery luger with stock(smile) for those situations. Well, actually, I just traded off a 9mm marlin rifle, so long barreled 9mm firearms don't really appeal to me.

[Herb]

<img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" /> Dang Bud, where in Oregon do you live, sounds like in the valley behind Ruby Ridge?

[Bud]

Ah yes, Ruby Ridge, did anyone pray to the almighty Yalway today or take on five wives(that thought is scary)? Ha, ha, just kidding. Sorry, not into that kind of lifestyle, but I am sure there are some out there that are holding onto their lugers under their pillows at night with one hand, and a cross in the other hand, and spouting that constitution stuff about how their aint nothing in the constitution about the intent on paying taxes, "cause God will provide, not the guvment", ignorantly of course.
Hey, I know, that is where all the artillery lugers have gone, darned it! Yep in all those bible and constitution thumpers "collections", along with their mini 14's and other ineffectual militia gear. You see, the problem with all those militia types are that they eat alot of dehydrated survivalist foods, which, by they way, causes constipation, which is why those types are ,ummm, well, full of something. Now, if they would just figure out that "when society comes to an end" that those fine shoulder stocked artillery lugers aren't as good as their unreliable mini 14's, well then, they might be able to sell their lugers and buy more dehydrated foods and cases of Ex-Lax, for "when society comes to an end" and they have to defend their dehydrated foods, and their snaggletooth women.

[Edward Tinker]

Have to agree with most everyone, that is for sure. I would rely on a Luger as a defensive weapon if I "had" to, but if you have time, grab a shotgun or assault type of gun. I like the .45 because of its size and stop-ability, although the 40's are good, it depends on where you live. You have next door neighbors and a 40, a 9 mm, a 357, anything that can go through several walls is a detriment. A .45 or shotgun with bird shot will stop almost anybody. But bullet placement is the important thing, if you can consistently hit something small then any caliber will do okay. We used to always hear, more people are killed by a .22 in the US every year than all other calibers. I assume this is still true. But also remember that under stress, it is hard as heck to hit anything, after a gun fight, you might pop off 10 rounds and swear you shot two, and never hit a darn thing.

[wterrell]

You fellers are thinking but are not considering the measurable air between you and the devil. <img src="graemlins/sleep.gif" border="0" alt="[sleep]" />

To gain the respect of a 'shadow at night' and propel him toward the door, you brandish the Luger (the harbinger of death and evil). <img src="graemlins/oops.gif" border="0" alt="[oops]" />

As he accelerates away, start popping at him with a Beretta 92S to the distance of 8 feet or so. A hollow point would do well at this stage of the engagement. [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

Then, between 8 feet and 25 feet, release a 10 ga. load from a Marlin single shot goose gun. <img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" />

This will assure you that his footwork will be intense to 75 feet while you place a deer slug in the Marlin, which you send after him, up to 125 feet.
<img src="graemlins/cussing.gif" border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" />

At this point, you must take your time to allow the villian to retreat an adequate distance so that your Ruger M77 rifle chambered in 300 Winchester Mag will be of most effect. This is what you have waited for, so do not spoil it by being overly anxious and shooting in haste. 100 yards to 400 yards is a good window for this weapon. So, dial 911 and chat with the operator, while you wait for the culprit to get within the 'sugar' zone.
<img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />
Home defense has never been so good!

[AGE]

I'm sure you guys aren't serious, but don't forget--if he is running away it isn't self defense.