Technical Questions from a novice

[Roadkill]

Thor, you use the terms salt & rust blued definitively in your descriptions of specific guns. Would you (or anyone else so inclined)please post a few examples of a rust blued & salt blued genuine guns then some of reblued new and reblued old? If possible post them side by side.

Is it possible to chamber a round in a luger with the safety on? Or does this mean I've torn up (or about to tear up) something else? And can you eject a round in the chamber with mag removed with safety on?

And how do you release the firing pin without dry firing it? Every time I try it still dry fires.

Thanks

RK

[Thor]

RK, you really need to see them side to side, pictures are so darn hard to do justice. A good rust blue is blue/gray color and the older salt blued guns are a black/gray color. You really need to come to Ralphs next spring and I will SHOW you the difference! As far the firing a Luger with the safety on, it is not possible if the parts are all in working order as the safety bar BLOCKS the sear bar from rotating far enough to release the firing pin. You can typically fire a Luger, except some police models, with JUST THE TOP section which is very dangerous. To release the firing pin spring from its tension, you make sure the gun is empty AND POINTED IN A SAFE DIRECTION, you SLOWLY lower the toggle, without the mag in place and NOT chambering a round, and slowly lower it closed by hand, at the very last 1/4" of breech movement you feel a little added resistance, at this point, you pull the trigger WHILE holding the toggle back a bit, then with the trigger depressed you lower the toggle the last little bit, the firing pin spring is not compressed. The last 1/4" of breech movement is what compresses the firing pin spring.

[G.W. Gill]

Please don't. I don't think they were made to work that way. A chambered round in a Luger is going to ruin your life or your floor. Please do not try to "decock" your loaded Luger. I am speaking from experience. She siad "Did you shoot my floor". I said " Yes ". The Guy at the gun show said you could. She was with with me when he said you could safely do it. HE WAS WRONG. I am now the WOOD PUTTY GUY. That was 20 Yrs ago.

[Edward Tinker]

Did you shoot my floor.

I about died !!!

I have never done anything like that in my life.
<img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" />

At least where I shot the floor, a desk doesn't count does it?

[img]biggrin.gif[/img] [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

[Thor]

As you notice, I did say, MAKE SURE THE GUN IS EMPTY (UNLOADED FIRST) AND NOT CHAMBERING A ROUND, and also POINTED IN A SAFE DIRECTION, prior to lowering the firing pin to a relaxed position. The alternative is the same except the gun now has a cocked firing pin?? I prefer to have all my Lugers stored empty with no ammo and without the firing pin being in the firing position. It saves the spring and the pin (dry firing can sometimes actually damage the firing pin.)

[John Sabato]

Roadkill,

It seems one of your questions was not answered...

The answer is No... to you question of whether or not you can chamber a round with the safety ON.

At least not in a properly fitted Luger that is NOT already cocked on an empty chamber.

You CAN however, open the toggle to unchamber a round, or load a round into the chamber IF and only IF the weapon is already in the cocked position...

Don't try this at home kids UNLESS you are using DUMMY rounds or else YOU are the DUMMY! [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

[Roadkill]

Let's try this again. I'm not really sure if what I asked (except for the bluing) was what the answers provided might have been or were intended to answer.

1. You can decok an EMPTY luger by lowering the toggle nearly all the way down and pulling the trigger. I understand that.

2. You can/cannot chamber a round with the safety ON?

3. You can/cannot eject a round from the chamber with the safety ON?

And I, not proudly, admit to have also experienced the heart stopping wave of incomprehension ensuing from an accidental discharge of an "unloaded" firearm. It was a MAB D .32, bounced all over the basement one night, my wife still doesn't believe that I was "test firing" into a bullet box.

RK

[Thor]

You CAN load a round into a Luger with the safety on provided it has the post 1914 relieved sear bar, I just did it on my plum 1938 Luger. You CAN eject the loaded round with the safety on, that is precisely why the sear bar was relieved after 1914 (and including 1914) Some earlier models were revamped and a hold open added at the same time the sear was relieved. I had to pull back on the cannon until it stopped BEFORE I lifted the toggle links up, but it worked! <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" />

[Jerry Harris]

The topic of chambering/unchambering a round with safety on has been well covered here, but in pieces. Let me run it a bit farther into the ground while verifying and summarizing previous posts.

As Thor said, opening the breech with safety on is possible ONLY with Lugers that have the fully-relieved sear bar. This improvement was patented by Georg Luger himself and earned him a royalty for every gun made with it, or modified to have it.

Expect to find the relieved sear on all WW1 or later non-grip safety Lugers, and on some earlier ones due to retrofitting. You can recognize it by noting that the raised bevel on the sear bar extends only 1/8-inch behind the trigger plate, leaving a 3/8-inch gap between it and the sear-blocking safety blade, when the safety is on.

Typical UNLOADING scenario:
You have ceased firing at any point in discharging a magazine and you want to unload the cocked gun completely.

1. Apply the safety.
2. Remove the magazine.
3. Pull the toggle fully back to eject the live round.

Typical LOADING scenario:
You want to load an empty chamber, but with the safety applied beforehand.

1. Pull back the toggle/breechblock about 1/4-inch, until you hear the sear click into engagement with the firing pin lug.

2. Push the toggle foward and fully down to close the breech, compress the firing pin spring, and **** the gun. If you don't do this, even the relieved sear will not allow the breech to open when the safety is on! (emphasis added by John Sabato, Moderator)

3. Apply the safety.

4. Open the breech and chamber a round.

In either scenario and in ALL cases, a properly-functioning applied safety will prevent the gun from firing by blocking the motion of the sear bar. A smart user knows this but treats any weapon as loaded with the safety about to fail. Easy to say, but hard to follow through on consistently!

A removed cannon (top assembly of barrel, receiver, breechblock and toggle) has no safety and CAN fire, so always empty the chamber and remove the magazine before disassembling. This applies to any gun, but more critically to a Luger.

[Herb]

Jerry, I found out that a disassembled Luger can indeed fire. Fortunately it was unloaded. I have since wondered what kind of recoil one would have if fired while disassembled. I think I'll let someone else try it first.

[Roadkill]

Its amazing. I saw a guy take an M-60 barrel, put a .308 round in chamber, put the bolt in and turn it so it locked, hit it wit a helmet and it went off. Not accurate but better than a bayonet. Gun was jammed.

RK

[Jerry Harris]

Herb,
Regarding what we can accurately call a "loose cannon," I can't help imagining how one might be used, say in a movie or some other fictional situation. The Luger cannon is extremely slim and could be hidden in all kinds of places. It's only a single-shot and dangerous as hell, but easy to load and potentially useful if you are desperate or deranged.

My hero/villain would load the cannon, wrap the toggle with duct tape to secure it (and form a makeshift grip), leaving a gap where his thumb could press the sear bar. Then up the sleeve it goes...

[Herb]

Jerry, several years ago I read somewhere that a German officer actually shot and killed an enemy soldier that came rushing into his bunker while he had his Luger field stripped but still loaded by squeezing the sear bar. Don't know if it is true or not. I'll bet he knew when it went off! I wonder if the recoiling toggles could be held closed by hand pressure alone? I am curious but not adventurous so I may never know. If you try it let me know the results.

[Jerry Harris]

Herb,
I think I'll have, say, James Mason as Erwin Rommel try it before I do, but I can promise you one thing: If you could stand the recoil, you'd easily be able to keep the toggle closed (as would one wrap of duct tape). Since the center toggle pin axis is designed to sit just a little lower than the line connecting the centers of the breech pin and the rearmost pin, the toggle will resolutely hold itself closed under full recoil. Remember how they had a toggle lock for a while, and then took it off when it proved unnecessary? It's only those ramps on the back of the frame that "trip" the toggle and let it start folding. That brings up another interesting detail. When the Luger toggle in the assembled gun is operated by hand, the opening sequence is quite different from the firing sequence, and the toggle knobs never strike the ramps.

Of course our loose cannon would never encounter any ramps either, so the toggle should stay closed.

[wterrell]

<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

tacfoley,

You have my undying admiration.

[unspellable]

Tacfoley,

Since part of my research project includes the properties of recoil springs, can you furnish me with details as to the free width of your palm, preloaded width, loaded width, and K, the ratio of force to deflection of your hide? What caliber was the canon? What sort of load? Did you get reliable ejection and feeding?

unspellable

[Edward Tinker]

[quote] the ratio of force to deflection of your hide? <hr></blockquote>

Unspellable, you about killed me! <img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" /> <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" /> <img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" />

[Thor]

Okay, so I couldnt stand it anymore, I fired a Luger top section by itself (no frame) today. I survived and the Luger fired! More on this later! For a hint, I am a cautious sort! <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

[Jerry Harris]

Let's see, hint is you're cautious... Maybe you aimed the camera and talked the pizza delivery boy into playing squeeze-the-sear? [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Herb]

Thor, can you still straw those parts with those bandages on your hand??