Forum closure or paranoid old conservative.

[Jan C Still]

Fellow collectors,
I am confused. The threat of closure seems to hang over this Forum. As the previous shutdown demonstrated, many people depend on this Forum. I have read through the forum rules and decorum and still do not fully understand why it shut down and what keeps it going. How expensive is it to run such a Forum? Does anybody profit? Certainly the members profit in having such a good forum. Is it only through the good graces of John D. that this Forum exists? What are his motives and expectations?

Most of the harsh exchanges (flames) on this Forum result from disputes about faked and boosted Lugers or sellers misrepresentation of such. Was not the Forum closed because of such harsh exchanges. Some Forum members and moderators are less than receptive to the well intended advice of long time Luger collector/experts concerning faked and boosted Lugers (ie Klaus Schad's comments on the von Popen Luger). I have the impression that the Forum strongly favors the seller/dealer over the buyer. Is this an unwritten policy? The recent locking and deleting of strings (members comments)seem partly intended to save the seller from exposure/embarrassment. Is this intentional or am I just a paranoid old conservative?
Jan C. Still

[Lugerlvr]

Yes!!!!

Now mabey people will wake up!
Truth is one thing, libel is another. Don't confuse the two, guys! The orange is beginning to peel. No flames intended or implied. I AM NOT REFERENCING ANY OF MY PREVIOUS POSTS, SO PLEASE GIVE THAT SUBJECT A REST. This is all brand new.
Thanks Jan, for speaking up, it means far more than you know to the newer members of this forum.

Timothy Canney <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" /> <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" /> <img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" />

[John Sabato]

Hello Jan,

Since I know that John D. is busy, please allow me to attempt address your concerns one at a time.

There is no threat of closure for the new board... The old board format precluded accountability for posting, this board and membership rules does not. To participate in this new forum you can't be anonymous. You must supply credible identification credentials (a real first and last name) that will be public and a valid email address that will remain private except to the administrators for the site. Membership is approved on that basis. If you don't supply valid information in your registration, you are sent a polite message advising your of why your membership was declined and offered the chance to correct the situation.

Just for the record, there have only been 5 memberships declined out of the 306 currently registered, and that is because the registrants have not replied to their declination message with appropriate credentials.

The costs of operating the forum are all paid by John D. as a personal contribution to the hobby of Luger collecting. He is the owner of record of the Internet Domain name Lugerforum.com, and the site is hosted on his equipment, and internet connection that he operates for other business reasons where he makes his living. He is not a firearms dealer.

The site is not financially supported by contributions from any source except his own pockets. And a grand and generous gesture it is in my opinion. He has no other expectations or motives other than to foster the exchange of good information on the history and use of the Luger pistol. There is no profit motive because there is no profit. There is no commercial advertising accepted, and the only sales that take place are via classified ads placed by members and these are free as well.

John D. took on the responsibility of hosting the Lugerforum that was started by John Chapman when the original free discussion board that was based in Taiwan became a speed and accessibility problem. Several long term members proposed the movement of the board and testing of the new facilities began in November of 2000 and the Lugerforum.com opened it's pages to the public in 2001 under the competent webmastership of Dok...who is still the webmaster of the site as well as an adminsrator of the discussion forums. all efforts to operate the site are provided at the personal time and expense of the owner, the administrators and moderators. There is no compensation other than the gratitude of the members.

The old board closed not just because of the flames that were out of control, but also because of statements being made about dealers that had serious legal implications... John D. had been contacted by at least one lawyer regarding things that were being stated in public on the forum about his client. That situation necessitated the closure of the anonymous forum and establishment of the current moderated format.

The only censorship here that has or will take place is where comments jeopardize either the forum or members of the forum. The only postings that have been deleted, to my knowledge involved a debate about a particular member's Swiss Navy Luger. That was done at the discretion of the moderator of that forum moderator...

Other posts that have been deleted included duplicate posts that were made by accident by a member.

The only message threads that have been locked to my knowledge include official announcements, and one thread that was speculating on the identity of "the shadow" on the old board. I terminated that discussion because it involved personalities and was completely off topic and did nothing to further either the forum or the hobby. Whoever was the identity behind the "shadow" can no longer post anonymously and neither can anyone else...

There is no official or unoffical allegence to any gun dealer by this forum. Every member has their own opinions about the dealer known to traffic in Lugers... the problem lies in translating that opinion to facts that are of use to others... It is a narrow line that must be walked so that the forum can be held non-accountable for things said in this medium about dealers.

I will try to state the "policy" if you can call it that in the simplest of terms:

While fraud can happen in any sales context, it is no more rampant in the Luger collecting field than in any other field of collecting historical objects... This forum is in the business of establishing the truth about the history and use of the Luger pistol... Nothing more, and nothing less. This information that is exchanged is for the benefit of all luger enthusiasts whether or not they are collectors. We are not the internet or auction police. BUT, if a member sees something wrong about a Luger or accessories that is being sold or auctioned, Or has a good tip on how a person can keep from being fooled by a fake or fraudulent merchandise? They are free to state what they feel is wrong about the merchandise, BUT it must be based it on known facts, not supposition, nor hearsay, and and not some previous transaction that they may have heard about. If there is cause for speculation about the authenticity of an item... just state the facts that are known and let those interested do their own research... For a distinguished collector (such as yourself for example) were to make inflamatory statements without factual basis... and it were not challenged, then the uninitiated might be inclined to accept that type of bias as fact. This is what the forum must avoid. The truth is always welcome here... Slanderous innuendo is not, nor is ungrounded character assassination. This forum used to endorse suppliers of Lugers and accessories and books, but it became quickly apparent that to do so was not in the best interests of forum.

I do not know how long you may have lurked on the old discussion board before you made your first post, but if you have been a constant reader during the last 3 years it should be apparent to you that the forum members as a whole attempt to provide an unbiased viewpoint on questions brought for discussion.

The receptiveness of some forum members to well intended advice is an individual thing... The job of the many individual forum moderators, and the 3 adminstrators like myself, is to do the best job we can to officially keep the forum as an entity neutral to these biases and to halt any flame wars that might erupt because they are non productive...

The indivudual forum moderators were chosen for their willingness to serve and their demonstrated strength of character over time.

The largest controversy that has arisen in the last year or so concerns the .45 caliber Lugers. There has been much speculation about them, their numbers, their locations, and their origin. Your posts have not been particularly subtle expressing, that in your opinion, that the newly discovered and made public .45 caliber carbine currently in the possession of Ralph Shattuck is likely a fraud. I submit that it is difficult to justify a position on either side of this argument. Just because no previous research has ever documented the existence of such a piece, doesn't mean that one could not have been made and kept out of the public eye until now...nor is it impossible that such a piece could have been tediously fabricated and artificially aged to look genuine.

I have not seen any credible evidence that has been made public on this forum to substantiate either idea.

Could it be a fraud? Could it be genuine? The evidence is not yet in... will it ever be in? Unless authenticated documentation is discovered and made public, I doubt that anyone will ever be able to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the gun is either genuine or a fake...

I know of no forensic tests that could be performed without damage to the gun and it's accessories that could provide that proof. Without evidence to the contrary, I can only conclude that the gun exists... it's authenticity or fraudulence cannot be proven at this point in time, and until such time as it can be proven one way or the other, it is unique in the world of Lugers... it wouldn't matter which dealer possessed it... It is currently one of a kind.

As to your comments about being paranoid... I can only repeat the two old jokes about such a thing:

1- Just because you say you are not paranoid, doens't mean that nobody is after you... [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

2- "I am not paranoid, but everybody thinks I am..." [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

Thanks for your inquiry Jan. If you or any other member has any other questions about the operation of this forum, or if you think I have failed to answer your questions please don't hesitate to contact me either privately or publicly here on the forum. We will do the best we can to answer your questions.

My best to you...

[Ron Wood]

Jan's is an important observation. I have posted before that we need to keep our comments objective and stick to observable and documented facts. Pure conjecture on the authenticity of a Luger (or any other object) based on photos on the web or past experiences with any dealer or collector isn't healty. Subtle innuendo or snide comments couched as humor also doesn't get around the fact that it is an attempt to deride or discredit. Behave as gentlemen/ladies, and consider the language you are using. Before posting a comment about which you have strong feelings, stop for a moment and consider how you would feel if it was directed at you.

For the most part, the forum does a great job of being impartial, and alerts newcomers to the pitfalls of buying or selling. Occasionally it gets tense, but if we keep cool heads, keep it objective and not personal, we will all enjoy it more and provide a healthy discussion environment for us all.

On a final note, it is not necessary to defend any buyer or seller, just stick to the facts. <img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" />

[Frank]

Ron & John, well said!! Just to amplify about language. Somethings can be said many different ways. Why not be tactful!! It may even provide a stronger argument!! [img]smile.gif[/img]

[wterrell]

The attorneys that contacted you were trying to treat you as publishers. A forum on the internet is not a publisher and only the poster is responsible for his post in reference to liable. The forum host is not responsible for the content of the post. It would be expensive to battle a frivolous lawsuit but ultimately the forum would prevail.

Consider a site providing auction services to sellers and buyers. The site has no responsibility for fraud hoisted upon prospective buyers.

[TC]

personally i look forward to scanning the forum daily. i do miss the humor and it has become stale.

but something is rotten in denmark and i think we all know who it revolves around. all of the "problems" from the last forum arose around only "one" dealer, so i guess it was his lawyer that called.

i can't help but feel that while the moderators are probably innocent here, there is a larger dark side withholding the truth somewhere up the line. as they say "follow the money" and we will learn the truth. by having this forum of luger collectors and the constant influx of new collectors, who has the most to gain financially? and over whelmingly who is reccomended above all else? i'm sorry, i am old and i am paranoid, but what i've seen, brought and held, and heard and read over the past 6 months on this forum leads me to believe that there are some "strange relationships" around us that would prefer the sheep to stay in the dark. and you know what? ....that's ok as long as we all get tatoo'ed on our heads "caveat emptor".

just the thoughts of a parinoid old collector <img src="graemlins/icon107.gif" border="0" alt="[icon107]" />

[Ron Wood]

TC: It is "guessing", supposition and innuendo that are the "problems" we are trying to avoid. Sticking to known facts protects the new collectors more than anything else.

[TC]

then ron, i guess if we'd just come on out and say who it was we wouldn't have to guess now would we? let's stop beating around the bush here. what is everybody afraid of? who is the "boogie man" out there? i don't like guessing, but there are a lot of unanswered things out there and it seems a lot of people want to just put their heads in the sand. hell, i don't care what or who's behind this forum i just don't like the mistrust and secrecy around some issues and people associated with this site. if this site is supported by mr. shattuck, then say so. there is nothing wrong with that, i think it would be a great promoional idea to have other dealers support this site financially. what is wrong is exactly what mr. still and others keep talking about. so, i'll stop doing the guessing when others start stating the facts.

<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

[Ron Wood]

I give up.

[Edward Tinker]

Tom, I'm like Ron, I don't understand where or why it is felt that Ralph is running this forum? It simply comes down to flaming and attacks without facts that moderators and administrators are trying to prevent.

This forum doesn't need that, and it seems to me that this forum can have good discussions on Lugers. I understand that if you feel you get burned that you are angry, but then you can start a forum on Yahoo or your own site and then you can lambast whomever you want and allow others to do so.

Legally you can't condone conduct, Wes is right, that the person that said the statements is the one liable, but also the forum will be drug into the fray, and if you or others want to promote and host a site where this is tolerated, I am sure that John would think that was wonderful and your decision.

And whether others think he is being timid on these matters or not, when it is your site and your liability or he "feels" it is his liability, then you play the game he is trying to run or run and host your own site?

[Brandon]

[quote]Originally posted by Ron Wood:
<strong>I give up.</strong><hr></blockquote>


Ron,
I gave up a long time ago!

[Johnny Peppers]

Like it or not, this entire controversy started with the posting of pictures of a Luger that was sure to fan the flames of heated debate. The origin of the pistol was shrouded in mystery, yet a full array of pictures was put on the fourm before anything was known about the pistol and with no hint of authentication. The entire episode has apparently divided the forum into two camps, and while everyone calls for calm and cool heads to prevail nothing additional has been offered on the pistol. Apparently facts of the pistol were sent to one of the leading world authorities on Lugers , and since the pistol did not get a stamp of approval, a controversy was started over that.
A lot is on the line here. If the pistol is genuine and authentic a great prize will have been delivered to students of the Luger, but if it is never proven to be absolutely authentic or worst yet a complete fake the Luger collecting fraternity will be shaken to it's foundation.

[Edward Tinker]

Well Johnny, I happened to drop by Ralph’s house to pick up my first collector Luger (on my trip from Texas to Washington) and he excitedly showed me the Carbine he had picked up the day before after flying out to look at it and then pick it up.

It never occurred to me that the pictures he allowed me to take would irritate people.

Why wouldn't people want to hear and see this carbine?

Did I bypass some protocol by publishing pictures on the forum without having it documented?

I thought the discussion on this would bring excitement, but was surprised to see the anger it aroused in people.

And I guess I myself have asked for "calm and cool heads", because I don't understand why many experts who have not seen it and have refused to go look at it, assume it is fake. The only way you can observe and make true comments is to study it.

Now if people say that they have NOT been allowed to look at it and provide facts, then that would be one thing. But I keep seeing snide character attacks and assumptions that it obviously is fake without ever having gone and seen it.

I find it very interesting that because Ralph has no desire to debate about this issue that that makes him a bad guy?

I don't remember the facts being sent to a world authority, or a controversy? Perhaps I missed something?

So this issue seems to get so hot, but I have noticed that it gets hot because instead of talking about the carbine , there suddenly becomes many innuendoes of sellers and buyers and people getting screwed. And then the thread gets stopped and people get upset?

BTW, what inch size makes it a pistol verus a carbine or rifle. The US Gov't says 16 inches makes it a carbine or rifle, except for some exceptions, such as some of the trapper Winchesters?

[Pete Ebbink]

Hello All,

Just two points I would like to make :

1. The Swiss Navy string was deleted, by me as co-moderator, when first asked to do so my the luger's owner (request was to close the string, only), and then when private, off-line e-mails were becoming very "flammable" in nature. Many first thought a Swiss Navy could not possibly exist and the luger owner felt his "investment" becoming tainted and devalued without any proof to support or suspect the luger's origins. I advised the owner to continue to research his gun's history and documentation and re-post, at a later date, his findings. I deleted the thread to give the owner a chance to do this and to stop flaming private e-mails that were circulating outside the edit-control of the Forum. Some my say my motive was to protect a particular seller; this is just not the case. My efforts were on behalf of the buyer to give him a chance to research his luger's heritage. The seller's identity was not known to me for nearly the half-life of the thread's duration. My actions would have been no different for Mr. Shattuck, Mr. Bob Simpson, Mr. Doug Smith, Mr. Fred Fiet, Mr. Kontos, or any other luger dealer. Who sold the luger was not the issue. Giving the gun's owner a chance to collect valid information about a little-known Swiss variation was my motive...an investment of several thousand dollars was semmingly "evaporating" without any real proof or documentation.

2. With the emergence of a carbine luger in .45 calibre, I had asked this question on our old Foum :

Why aren't all luger "experts" going in person to see the gun in question ?

Mr. Still; we all would think you and some of the other luger experts would set personal differences aside with Mr. Shattuck and make arrangements to see this luger in person. In the archeological field when an unknown or previously undiscovered fossil is unearthed, all experts in that particular field go in person and view/examine the fossil for themselves. This amongst fossil "experts" that are even rivals, professionally.

So why aren't you, Mr. Still and some of the other luger experts, calling and making an appointment with Mr. Shattuck for a chance to see this luger in person ? It is one thing to sit on the side lines and crank out criticism about a gun, never seen in person. It is another thing, to set professional and personal differences aside for the moment, and make the trip to Peoria to see the gun in person.

To this luger beginner; it seems this would be one of the easiest ways to settle this debate once and for all...For the luger experts to examine this luger in person and then make comment about its authenticity or lack, thereof.

Respectfully,

Wm. "Pete" Ebbink <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

[Johnny Peppers]

Ed,
I am sure that I too have not read all the posts on this forum, but the one I was referring to was the post by Klaus (user #278) on the Early Lugers forum under "Interesting Story in 1945" and was posted on June, 23, 2002.

[Mike Jones]

I don,t know if this means anything, But this is on Ralph Shattuck's web site concerning the carbine:

"If you have any difficulties reaching mr.Shattuck
due to his schedule-please feel free to contact:"
John Dunkle
phone #
Johnd@rennlist.com

I don't know if this is the same John D. that runs this forum.If it is maybe he can shed some light on this mess.

Mike

[John D.]

[quote]Originally posted by Michael Jones:
<strong>....I don't know if this is the same John D. that runs this forum.If it is maybe he can shed some light on this mess.

Mike</strong><hr></blockquote>

Hi Mike,

Yes - it's the same "John D." - of that, I'm certainly sure. What I'm not sure of, however - is when you refer to "this mess"? Perhaps you could be a little more explicit - so I could actually answer your question?

In short - I'm certainly not "in a mess" - are you?

[Herb]

<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> John, I love it!! <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" />

[Mike Jones]

John,

I would think if you read this entire thread and a few others in this forum, you would see why I used the term mess.

But I do feel,since you are the founder of this web site and the alternate contact on the carbine that seems to be causing a lot friction on this forum between members. That you or Ralph should address some issues being raised and maybe this will clam down some members on this forum.

Mike