Current German Carbine Reproductions

Sieger · 08-28-2003, 11:21 PM

Hi to All:

In this month's Deutsches Waffen Journal (8/August 2003, Page 126) the Firm "Wagner & Sohn" is selling an M1900/2000 Jagdkarabiner for 1,985 Euros (approximately $2,000.00).

From the photo, and ad, it is a remake of the original, including the 300mm barrel and fore and rear stocks. The sights look just like the originals, too.

If a good quality job, this is an unbelievable deal, as Martz repos are now selling here for almost $8,000.00!!

Does anywone know anything about these (our German members, perhaps)?

Sieger

Sieger · 08-28-2003, 11:23 PM

Hi Again:

I'm contacting the firm to get more information.

Sieger

lugerholsterrepair · 08-28-2003, 11:54 PM

Sieger, For that kind of money sign me up! If you find out anything about this please let the membership know. Jerry Burney

Michael Zeleny · 08-29-2003, 02:13 AM

I would be interested in participating in, or coordinating, a group buy. Also of interest to me is the Swiss surplus M1906/29.

mauro · 08-29-2003, 03:43 AM

Hello,
Is it possible to see a photo?

Ciao

Mauro

H.P.Langenbach · 08-29-2003, 05:21 AM

Hello friends
here are two URLÃ?Â´s of German gun makers who offer Luger carbines in very good quality at reasonable prices.
In case their is any interesst, I can contact the dealers on your behalf in case you face trouble because of the language.
http://www.touri.de/werle/Luger/luger.html
http://www.wagner-eltze.de/startseite_1.htm

IÃ?Â´ll try to post some pictures

regards from Germany
Peter

H.P.Langenbach · 08-29-2003, 05:39 AM

Hello friends,
below I try to post two pics

http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/...inerWagner.jpg

http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/...binerWerle.jpg

regards
Peter

Thor · 08-29-2003, 08:49 AM

Because these are new manufacture, they are not considered C&R and the stock law might be looked into. These might have to be transferred under a different license.

Jan Balcar · 08-29-2003, 09:04 AM

One of these is in my possession. I heard, the newly made parts originate from Romania, assembled in Germany. Mostly made from WW II pistols, all the markings (year, acceptance) remains. New hot dip blueng and new grips. Nice wood, nice finish. No grip safety, 9 mm Luger cartridge. For my carbine is +P+ loading to weak to recoil. Maybe the other are better.

Sieger · 08-29-2003, 11:07 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Jan Balcar:
One of these is in my possession. I heard, the newly made parts originate from Romania, assembled in Germany. Mostly made from WW II pistols, all the markings (year, acceptance) remains. New hot dip blueng and new grips. Nice wood, nice finish. No grip safety, 9 mm Luger cartridge. For my carbine is +P+ loading to weak to recoil. Maybe the other are better.<hr /></blockquote>Dear Jan:

Is yours a Wagner & Sohn Pistol? If not, from whom did you obtain it? How is the quality of the workmanship? The photos on the Wagner and Sohn site look very impressive, especially the wood work and quality.

Does your pistol have the extra spring in the fore stock to assist the regular recoil spring in its action?

Sieger

Sieger · 08-29-2003, 11:14 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Thor:
Because these are new manufacture, they are not considered C&R and the stock law might be looked into. These might have to be transferred under a different license.<hr /></blockquote>Thor:

Yes, the short barrel and stock may well be a consideration for importing these. Do you know of an FFL that has an import license?

Also, if we can get the parts, we may well wish to assemble our own here.

Sieger

Thor · 08-29-2003, 11:30 AM

Simpson LTD has an import FFL. Simpson LTD Import Services

Doug G. · 08-29-2003, 01:30 PM

I don't think that the butt stock will be a problem as long as the barrel length is 16". Another way to go about it is to write a letter to BATFE and ask them to add this gun to the C

Luke · 08-29-2003, 02:56 PM

Michael Zeleney alluded to a possible group purchase, presumably with a one-time, one-group shipment . . . . and, hopefully, at a quantity discount.

I would be interested in participating if anyone starts such a program.

Luke

John Sabato · 08-29-2003, 04:32 PM

Unless the barrel of these guns is at least 16 inches from muzzle to boltface then these guns will be considered Short Barreled Rifles (SBR) under the National Firearms Act of 1934 and will require registration and paying the federal tax on such weapons if ATF will even allow their importation...

Luke · 08-29-2003, 06:02 PM

Close examination of the picture, applying simple ratio methods, and using known Luger dimensions, it appears that the barrel length is roughly 11 inches. Not enough, unfortunately.

Admittedly, this is a very rough estimate, but I doubt that I am off by 5 inches. Someone check my estimate, please.

Luke

Sieger · 08-30-2003, 12:08 AM

Friends:

Well, if BATFE won't allow us to import them assembled, then maybe someone, like Thor, can simply import the parts and make them here, just like the Germans are doing.

Yes, these may be subject to special registration, but then again, so are the new Martz Carbines. At this price, I feel that most of us could afford the extra $500.00 "transfer fee" imposed under the Act.

STRICT ADHERENCE TO THE LAW WILL BE MAINTAINED BY ME, FOR ONE!!!

Has anyone on the Forum dealt with a Carbine transfer under the BATFE Regs before?

If so, could you lend us all a hand here.

Sieger

Sieger · 08-30-2003, 12:11 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Luke:
Close examination of the picture, applying simple ratio methods, and using known Luger dimensions, it appears that the barrel length is roughly 11 inches. Not enough, unfortunately.

Admittedly, this is a very rough estimate, but I doubt that I am off by 5 inches. Someone check my estimate, please.

Luke<hr /></blockquote>Hi Luke:

This is a recreation of the 1902 DWM Carbine with a 300mm barrel (aprox. a 11 1/2 inches).

Sieger

Sieger · 08-30-2003, 12:14 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Thor:
Simpson LTD has an import FFL. Simpson LTD Import Services<hr /></blockquote>Hi Thor:

Yes he does, but his price will reflect it, no doubt. I just remembered an importer that I have been doing business with for years, If we can import these assembled, I'll check to see if he has an interest.

Thanks!!!

Sieger

Jan Balcar · 08-30-2003, 06:11 AM

My carbine is made by BÃ?Â¶ddecker & Wagner (Wagner & Sohn predecessor) some three years ago. I bought it in Germany from an another dealer. The carbine is very well crafted. Wooden parts are well fitting and made from first class wood. BUT: It is NOT the 1902 carbine reproduction!

It is P.08 (no grip safety, short frame!) with long barrel (302 mm from muzzle to end of chamber) and removable stock. Carbine lacks extra spring, the regular recoil spring (on my piece!) is too strong, to recoil.

Three years ago I heard something about version with fixed (non removable) stock.

08-28-2003, 11:21 PM	#1
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,575 Thanks: 2,124 Thanked 400 Times in 249 Posts	Current German Carbine Reproductions Hi to All: In this month's Deutsches Waffen Journal (8/August 2003, Page 126) the Firm "Wagner & Sohn" is selling an M1900/2000 Jagdkarabiner for 1,985 Euros (approximately $2,000.00). From the photo, and ad, it is a remake of the original, including the 300mm barrel and fore and rear stocks. The sights look just like the originals, too. If a good quality job, this is an unbelievable deal, as Martz repos are now selling here for almost $8,000.00!! Does anywone know anything about these (our German members, perhaps)? Sieger

08-28-2003, 11:54 PM	#3
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,771 Thanks: 4,922 Thanked 3,123 Times in 1,434 Posts	Sieger, For that kind of money sign me up! If you find out anything about this please let the membership know. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

08-29-2003, 02:13 AM	#4
Michael Zeleny Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 525 Thanks: 129 Thanked 139 Times in 76 Posts	I would be interested in participating in, or coordinating, a group buy. Also of interest to me is the Swiss surplus M1906/29. __________________ Michael Zeleny@post.harvard.edu -- http://larvatus.livejournal.com/ -- 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 -- 323.363.1860 All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better. -- Samuel Beckett

08-29-2003, 03:43 AM	#5
mauro FIREARM HISTORIAN AND AUT Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 1,535 Thanks: 106 Thanked 349 Times in 129 Posts	Hello, Is it possible to see a photo? Ciao Mauro __________________ Mauro Baudino - www.lugerlp08.com www.paul-mauser-archive.com Mauser Company and Firearm Historian - Mauser Parabellum Certification Service.

08-29-2003, 08:49 AM	#8
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Because these are new manufacture, they are not considered C&R and the stock law might be looked into. These might have to be transferred under a different license. __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

08-28-2003, 11:23 PM	#2
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,575 Thanks: 2,124 Thanked 400 Times in 249 Posts	Hi Again: I'm contacting the firm to get more information. Sieger

08-29-2003, 05:21 AM	#6
H.P.Langenbach User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Germany Posts: 35 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hello friends here are two URLÃ?Â´s of German gun makers who offer Luger carbines in very good quality at reasonable prices. In case their is any interesst, I can contact the dealers on your behalf in case you face trouble because of the language. http://www.touri.de/werle/Luger/luger.html http://www.wagner-eltze.de/startseite_1.htm IÃ?Â´ll try to post some pictures regards from Germany Peter

08-29-2003, 05:39 AM	#7
H.P.Langenbach User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Germany Posts: 35 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hello friends, below I try to post two pics http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/...inerWagner.jpg http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/...binerWerle.jpg regards Peter

08-29-2003, 09:04 AM	#9
Jan Balcar User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Czech Republic, Europe Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	One of these is in my possession. I heard, the newly made parts originate from Romania, assembled in Germany. Mostly made from WW II pistols, all the markings (year, acceptance) remains. New hot dip blueng and new grips. Nice wood, nice finish. No grip safety, 9 mm Luger cartridge. For my carbine is +P+ loading to weak to recoil. Maybe the other are better. __________________ hoba

08-29-2003, 11:07 AM	#10
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,575 Thanks: 2,124 Thanked 400 Times in 249 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Jan Balcar: <strong>One of these is in my possession. I heard, the newly made parts originate from Romania, assembled in Germany. Mostly made from WW II pistols, all the markings (year, acceptance) remains. New hot dip blueng and new grips. Nice wood, nice finish. No grip safety, 9 mm Luger cartridge. For my carbine is +P+ loading to weak to recoil. Maybe the other are better.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Dear Jan: Is yours a Wagner & Sohn Pistol? If not, from whom did you obtain it? How is the quality of the workmanship? The photos on the Wagner and Sohn site look very impressive, especially the wood work and quality. Does your pistol have the extra spring in the fore stock to assist the regular recoil spring in its action? Sieger

08-29-2003, 11:14 AM	#11
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,575 Thanks: 2,124 Thanked 400 Times in 249 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Thor: <strong>Because these are new manufacture, they are not considered C&R and the stock law might be looked into. These might have to be transferred under a different license.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Thor: Yes, the short barrel and stock may well be a consideration for importing these. Do you know of an FFL that has an import license? Also, if we can get the parts, we may well wish to assemble our own here. Sieger

08-29-2003, 11:30 AM	#12
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Simpson LTD has an import FFL. Simpson LTD Import Services __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

08-29-2003, 01:30 PM	#13
Doug G. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Illinois Posts: 713 Thanks: 1 Thanked 53 Times in 17 Posts	I don't think that the butt stock will be a problem as long as the barrel length is 16". Another way to go about it is to write a letter to BATFE and ask them to add this gun to the C __________________ Suppose you were an idiot.....and suppose you were a member of Congress.....But I repeat myself" ~~ Mark Twain

08-29-2003, 02:56 PM	#14
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	Michael Zeleney alluded to a possible group purchase, presumably with a one-time, one-group shipment . . . . and, hopefully, at a quantity discount. I would be interested in participating if anyone starts such a program. Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

08-29-2003, 04:32 PM	#15
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Unless the barrel of these guns is at least 16 inches from muzzle to boltface then these guns will be considered Short Barreled Rifles (SBR) under the National Firearms Act of 1934 and will require registration and paying the federal tax on such weapons if ATF will even allow their importation... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

08-29-2003, 06:02 PM	#16
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	Close examination of the picture, applying simple ratio methods, and using known Luger dimensions, it appears that the barrel length is roughly 11 inches. Not enough, unfortunately. Admittedly, this is a very rough estimate, but I doubt that I am off by 5 inches. Someone check my estimate, please. Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

08-30-2003, 12:08 AM	#17
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,575 Thanks: 2,124 Thanked 400 Times in 249 Posts	Friends: Well, if BATFE won't allow us to import them assembled, then maybe someone, like Thor, can simply import the parts and make them here, just like the Germans are doing. Yes, these may be subject to special registration, but then again, so are the new Martz Carbines. At this price, I feel that most of us could afford the extra $500.00 "transfer fee" imposed under the Act. STRICT ADHERENCE TO THE LAW WILL BE MAINTAINED BY ME, FOR ONE!!! Has anyone on the Forum dealt with a Carbine transfer under the BATFE Regs before? If so, could you lend us all a hand here. Sieger

08-30-2003, 12:11 AM	#18
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,575 Thanks: 2,124 Thanked 400 Times in 249 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Luke: <strong>Close examination of the picture, applying simple ratio methods, and using known Luger dimensions, it appears that the barrel length is roughly 11 inches. Not enough, unfortunately. Admittedly, this is a very rough estimate, but I doubt that I am off by 5 inches. Someone check my estimate, please. Luke</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Hi Luke: This is a recreation of the 1902 DWM Carbine with a 300mm barrel (aprox. a 11 1/2 inches). Sieger

08-30-2003, 12:14 AM	#19
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,575 Thanks: 2,124 Thanked 400 Times in 249 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Thor: <strong>Simpson LTD has an import FFL. Simpson LTD Import Services</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Hi Thor: Yes he does, but his price will reflect it, no doubt. I just remembered an importer that I have been doing business with for years, If we can import these assembled, I'll check to see if he has an interest. Thanks!!! Sieger

08-30-2003, 06:11 AM	#20
Jan Balcar User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Czech Republic, Europe Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	My carbine is made by BÃ?Â¶ddecker & Wagner (Wagner & Sohn predecessor) some three years ago. I bought it in Germany from an another dealer. The carbine is very well crafted. Wooden parts are well fitting and made from first class wood. BUT: It is NOT the 1902 carbine reproduction! It is P.08 (no grip safety, short frame!) with long barrel (302 mm from muzzle to end of chamber) and removable stock. Carbine lacks extra spring, the regular recoil spring (on my piece!) is too strong, to recoil. Three years ago I heard something about version with fixed (non removable) stock. __________________ hoba