Not Quite Right Navy

[tom]

Received a supposed Weimar Navy marked Sneak today.

At first blush, it was *very* interesting, especially since I had never seen a Navy marked Sneak before.


Sat down at the collector's bench, aka the kitchen table, and broke out my loupe and Ott light.


Gave her a "naked eye visual inspection" first. Looked pretty good (as in richeous). About 91-92% finish, good looking Anchor M and Nxxx property marks on a patinated back strap. Sn matched wood bottom mag in condition similar to and consistent with the gun. Something bothered me....


Field stripped her. First thing out of the chute, there was a problem with the side plate. There was pitting under the bluing on the reverse side. I could have stopped looking then but I wanted to see if this was the only issue or a portent of more to come.


Popped the grip panels. No pitting or obvious oxidation at the wood to metal contact points. Hmmmm..grips not numbered. No marks of any sort, but well used, but not abused,grips with DWM style checkering.


Off comes the cannon and on with the Ott light. Toggle axel pin out and things start being revealed. The toggle is numbered to the gun on its underside as well as in the customary position rear of the sight. Number is powerfully struck and very bold. But, whats this? The firing pin is unnumbered but is stamped with a capital K.


An Ott light lit loupe examination of the Crown N proofs on the toggle, frame and barrel reveals an oddity. The toggle proof is crisp and sharp. The proofs on the frame and barrel are not. In fact, the barrel proof looks like it has been restruck but done in an inexact fashion that mangles the sharpness of the crown. Further examination of the barrel via loupe under Ott light reveals two distinctly different variations in the surface texture or "grain" of metal surface of the barrel. And neither of these is consistent with the surface texture of the frame or the toggle. This tells me that they have been polished when separate; possibly blued separately at some time. Not fer certain, but don't believe DWM or Erfurt or Simpson blued loads of parts first and then assembled them..mebbe, but not certain.


I lay the piece down and get a glass of water.


Picking it back up again, I see something on the holdopen. It is not immediately recognizable to my 55 year old eyes. Loupe and Ott light time again.


Hmmmmm...it is not a serial number; it is a crown over gothic scriptic B. I suspect an Erfurt piece part has been installed. As I am pondering this, I glance at the overall frame. Zero straw on the trigger. Ditto the safety. And, whadda ya' know? 100% crisp yellow straw on the ejector. Not at all consistent with what one would expect.


Now, that Weimar Navy property mark looks odd. Under the loupe it becomes clear. There is a pin-punch type dimple under the left leg of the M. I know that depot rebuilds by Simpson and Mauser often had dimples but these were on the toggle right side near the breech block hinge. Never saw one on the grip strap before. May not be wrong, but is the last in a string of far too many issues for a $2100 gun.


It went into UPS about an hour later.


For what its worth, the Ott light and jewelers loupe are, IMHO, the absolute best for carefully examining our toys...they make subtleties like metal grain stand out distinctly. A good investment of a $100 that will save you lots more down the trail.


FWIW,

Tom

PS..I wish it had been right; it would have filled a spot on my Navy rack!

Very nice descirption and breakdown.


This is why I hang out here Tom!


Thanks for the great info! Hopefully some other guy with a 1/4 of your knowledge won't get taken!


Apprecaite the lessons, and I wish it had been a good one too for you.


Ed

Tom, One reason that I don't like to deal in the high end $ lugers, unless I'm absolutely sure where they came from, is that forgeries are rampant. I suspose that I'm guilty of selling some rarer parts unknowingly to forgers, but even if I knew, who am I to ask for how the parts that I sell are going to be used. Caveat Emtor.

Thanks for an excellent 'critique' ...I wish more would share such info. How about sharing the serial number with us or report it those who keep track of such stuff?


I am at a loss as to the OTT light....could you post or email me more info..how do I use it and where can I get one?


Also...am totally 'at sea' with many of the code letters being used...IMHO LOL EOM etc etc etc...


How about emailing me a list or telling me where I can get a breakdown?


The Shadow DOESN'T know!

hehehehehehehehehehehehe

[Thor]

Tom, LOVED the story! "Very Enlightening!!" I appreciate the educaton on Luger Buying!! Thanks for the "primer" on cautious Luger purchasing! ~Thor~

tom,,,think i know where you found the gun....i inquired about one, and was told it was a "sneak", and sold pending approval...believe you saved me the effort of any follow-up

Chat rooms use many of these acronyms.


Here are a few (and I am no expert on these!!)


LOL = lots of laughs

IMHO = In my humble opinion


You will also see IMO = In my opinion


EOM = end of message, if you don't put anything in the message block, it automatically puts end of message.


There are many more.


Ed

[Steve]

The OTT light is a brand of full spectrum light sold at places like craft/hobby stores and sewing/fabric stores. I am also starting to see them at more general merchandise stores. They produce light that is a match for natural sunlight in the color balance. I hope that this helps.

[BILL]

Tom, excellent description of an inspection of a Luger. Very interesting reading. It put me in the chair at the table and gave me the same feelings I have when I examine a piece upon approval(I can't say I always have the same discipline, though). Looking forward to more of your posts.

[BILL]

Shad, the only 'codes' I noticed in Tom's post was FWIW (for what it's worth). I notice that your email address is UK and it seems a shame that you use a pseudonym constantly and have no profile posted. I am sure that folks here would like to know a little about the other posters (unless there is an APB on you)..uh, that's an all points bulletin.

[tom]

To the Forum,


Gents and some of you who aren't,


I have been playing with Lugers for 40 plus years now and one thing I have learned is to trust investigation over instinct.


I have been flim-flammed before-who hasn't-but I don't think (lets say I feverently hope)it won't happen again.


These days, I never buy a piece for over $2K unless I am very certain of its origin and/or have a right of return. Likewise, I use the Ott light, loupe and a couple of other tricks I have picked up to spot the *improved* pieces that float around.


But mostly, I spend hunderds of hours reading and studying. And I do not limit these efforts to the popular authors-Still, Kenyon, etc. I read heavily on metalurgy, leather conservation, German Naval history, etc...all of this is to provide me with additional insight into the context in which our favorite pistols were manufactured and used. I also try to attend a couple of the major shows each year, hopefully to score something really nice as I was able to do at the last two MAX shows, but mostly to see whats being touted as real, learn whats showing up and keep a pulse on the market.


I would commend similar actions on all listmember's parts as well as joining NAPCA.


Glad you liked my trip through the Not Quite Right Navy. As I investigate additional pieces, as time permits, I will share these investigations with the membership.


Tom

Tom...just curious what did the seller have to say?.....Leo

[Thor]

Please do continue to post a write up on these inspections, they are VERY helpful! ~Thor~

To prevent being defrauded by an altered or phonied up Luger, follow the following simple rules:


1. Never pay more than $300 for a complete matching Luger rig including holster, matching spare mag, and loading tool. For carbines, navys, and other oddballs you can risk up to another $50 or so.


2. Never pay more than $200 for an all matching Luger with a mint, original appearance without accessories.


3. Never pay more than $125 for a Luger with any non matching parts.


4. Buy only from widows and dumb surviving relatives of a rich, deceased Luger collector.


By adhering strictly to these rules you will never get hurt.

[tom]

Hi Leo,


Seller is at an out of town show for the weekend but I do not expect any probs. He is a good and honorable man who I have known for many years. I strongly suspect he was simply in over his head experience and expertise wise on this one. Navys are a spealization within a specialization and a sneak is just a rare bird... It certainly looked good at first glance, tho and if I had not picked up the sideplate reblue, I might have been less critical in my examination...Don't you believe it!


Tom

Hi Tom.again thanks for your blow by blow discription of the examination, it was of great interest....thanks Leo

[Don]

Tom,

Your report read like a real page-turner novel! Thanks for the education. Also, as a newbie, I'm still looking for reputable sources of Lugers, and I'd appreciate more info on the dealer so I can avoid him. Thanks.

Arthur,


Make sure you keep me posted of a few of these Lugers and their holsters for me!!


Those prices are a bit cheaper than I am used to seeing!





Ed

[bill m]

Hi Tom,

I have a couple of questions for you on this Navy. When you say a "sneak", what are you talking about? A new manufactured Luger in the S,T, or U blocks, or a blank toggle, blank dated reworked Luger?


If this is a completely reworked Luger to start with, and then sent to the navy depot for numbering and possibly refurbishing again, it could give a possible explanation for some of your concerns? If it was of new manufacture, then that explains a lot also!


Evaluating a Luger is always fun and interesting, and can be a great learning experience. One must use every trick in the book when in question of something that doesn't stike one as being right. Thanks!

[tracyp]

Is this the Weimar Navy listed on Gunsamerica?