Confused about powder and burn rates

[Hammerman]

I have a WWII luger that I've been shooting winchester white box in. Now I'm starting to reload the brass using 115 fmj with CCI 500 primers.

I have a Handgunner magazine from 1996 or '97 that has an article called "The Luger is a Shooter". I that article, it states that a slow burning powder is best for the luger and it recommends a load of 4.1grs. of Red Dot. It say that Red Dot is the closest to the original German loads. The part I don't understand is that when you look at the powder burn charts, Red Dot is in the top 5 for one of the fastest burning powders??? So is Red Dot really good to use, or was the magazine wrong?

Also, I'm using rcbs dies and it's had to get the bullet to seat straight. I know you want the bullet to be seated out farther with the luger, but the farther you seat it out, the harder it is to get the bullet seated straight.

Thanks for any help.

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by Hammerman

"I have a WWII luger that I've been shooting winchester white box in. Now I'm starting to reload the brass using 115 fmj with CCI 500 primers.

"In that article, it states that a slow burning powder is best for the luger and it recommends a load of 4.1grs. of Red Dot.

Red Dot is nowhere near the original powder, but will shoot nicely in a Luger, anyway. With 115 grain bullets, your load should be between 3.8 to 4.1 grains. Load up a full magazine of 8, each, of these and test for function and accuracy. Getting your pistol to function properly and accurately is your goal and somewhere in this range you will find the "correct" load that your pistol prefers.

"It say that Red Dot is the closest to the original German loads. The part I don't understand is that when you look at the powder burn charts, Red Dot is in the top 5 for one of the fastest burning powders??? So is Red Dot really good to use, or was the magazine wrong?

"Experts" come and go in the magazine world, but a really excellent article, on making the Luger shoot accurately, was written in Handloader Magazine, No 41, January-Feburary 1973, page 32, by Ken Waters. (Private Message me for a copy).

The two best powders I have found for a 9mm Luger, after years of study, are:
SR4756 and Power Pistol. These two are, indeed, near to the original DWM powder. Each is capable of both excellent accuracy and perfect function in a Luger (X ring for eight rounds fired with perfect function).

Ken had just about everything down perfectly except the proper OAL issue. In fact, his loads were so short that he could only fire five in a magazine without jamming his Luger. When loaded to proper OAL, you can easily shoot a full eight rounds without an issue.

"Also, I'm using rcbs dies and it's had to get the bullet to seat straight. I know you want the bullet to be seated out farther with the luger, but the farther you seat it out, the harder it is to get the bullet seated straight.

You need to, ever so slightly, bell the mouths of your cases. This should eliminate this issue.

With a round nose bullet, your OAL should be 1.173 inches. I know, this seems very long, but the pistol was designed to shoot cartridges of this length.

"Thanks for any help.

Private message me for more details on loading a Luger with modern components, etc.

Also, I hope that the springs in your Luger are in good shape, as a Luger with its springs out of spec., can be almost a hopeless case as to fuction.

Sieger

[sheepherder]

Your best bet is to forget magazine articles and get a copy of Speers Reloading Manual - the latest copy you can find. Powder characteristics change over the years, especially if your favorite powder mfg changes ownership and then the product line is revamped...

(If you have several different years worth of reloading manuals, you'll notice that even with the same powder and the same bullet traveling at the same velocity, the amount of powder changes...over the years...or to put it another way, with the same powder & bullet and same amount of powder, the velocity changes...Even with different lot numbers of the same powder, the characteristics change...)

Reloading is an interesting hobby...Finding the "sweet spot" in the amount of powder for any given bullet in a particular pistol/rifle is a fascinating way to spend some time...

I use W231, HS6, or AA #7...when I can find them...

[Hammerman]

I appreciate the info. I am belling the case so that about 1/16" of the bullet goes into the case easy. The other powders I use for different calibers are HS-6, Longshot, and Universal. How would these work for the luger?

Does anyone know what powder winchester loads their white box ammo with? That seems like a good load to duplicate.

My springs in the mags are all good. The gun has never had any problems with the white box stuff.

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by Hammerman

"I appreciate the info.

"I am belling the case so that about 1/16" of the bullet goes into the case easy.

When seating your bullets, make sure there is no crimp applied. In fact, the seating die should be set to just "kiss" the mouth of the casing. This will eliminate your bell, but not crimp in your bullet. You will know when you get this right.

"The other powders I use for different calibers are HS-6, Longshot, and Universal. How would these work for the luger?

HS-6 looks like the best choice to me. This is the old Winchester 540 shotgun powder pulling double duty as a pistol powder.

Now, here is the trick. With eight rounds loaded to the same charge (for each charge tested) start very low, even to the point where the pistol will not function, and move upward 1/10 of a grain until the pistol just functions. This is your baseline load. Proceed upward again until your load just starts to outrun your springs and back off 1/10th. This is your maximum load. Somewhere between these two extremes you will find your pistol's perfect, most accurate load. Usually, it will be on the lighter side of your two extremes. With the above tests, you must shoot all eight rounds, per charge being tested, to get an accurate read on how the pistol is responding to the charge being tested. .

Don't forget about the proper OAL of 1.173 inches, or all of your work may become frustrating.

"Does anyone know what powder winchester loads their white box ammo with? That seems like a good load to duplicate.

Im sure the white box will function your Luger, but is it accurate? Find just the right load for HS-6 and you should have 8 in the X ring after some practice, and, with perfect function.

"My springs in the mags are all good. The gun has never had any problems with the white box stuff.

What year is your Pistol?

I agree, in part, with Postino's post above. You might want to invest in the Load Books, U.S.A. publication for the 9mm Luger. They sell for about $6.00, or so, on e-bay. The correct name of this book is "The Complete Reloading Manual for the
9MM Luger". This single book compiles the 9mm reloading date from all of the various, current, reloading manuals (Hornady, Speer etc.), and is well worth the money.

Let me know how you are getting along with your load development.

Sieger

[Mauser George]

Originally Posted by Sieger

Private message me for more details on loading a Luger with modern components, etc.

Also, I hope that the springs in your Luger are in good shape, as a Luger with its springs out of spec., can be almost a hopeless case as to fuction.

Sieger

Sieger:

Could you please advise how I would check to see is my Luger springs are out of spec?

George

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by Hammerman

"The other powders I use for different calibers are HS-6, Longshot, and Universal. How would these work for the luger?

Hodgdon's Universal also looks like a good choice, as it is only one step faster than my favorite Alliant Power Pistol powder. My reference chart doesn't list a Longshot powder, but is probably a few years old.

Remember, start low and work up.

Sieger

[Hammerman]

Thanks for all the help.

I think I'll try a few different reloads and post how they go.

[Sieger]

Dear Postino:

Originally Posted by postino

I use W231, HS6, or AA #7...when I can find them...

I'm lucky enough to own a DWM 1916 Artillery and am interested in your favorate load in the AA#7 powder you mentioned above.

I've used Blue Dot in that long 8 inch barrel, but it wasn't grouping for me.

Thanks!

Sieger

[unspellable]

You have several springs to consider. The main two that give trouble are the recoil spring and the magazine spring. Magazine springs usually give trouble in after market magazines where the spring is not to spec. Vintage magazines are more likely to give trouble if the lips have been bashed around over the years. Recoil springs give trouble because they have been tinkered with or replaced by "gunsmiths" who had no idea what they were doing. First step is to count coils and see if you have the correct number. Springs that have been mucked up or replaced usually have the wrong number of turns.

Powder burn rate will have absolutely NO effect on functioning. Sieger will say it does, but that's because he counts accuracy as part of functioning. I don't, I consider proper functioning to be reliable operation and accuracy as a separate issue. Loading to the correct velocity for the bullet in hand does affect functioning. (Not the "hot" loads street "wisdom" says, the Luger wants middle of the road loads.)

One other point if you are hand loading. The SAAMI specs for OAL for the 9 mm call for a maximum OAL that is actually the minimum as Georg originally intended. Seat the bullet so the OAL is a tad on the long side. Sieger has the number, I don't have it to hand at the moment.