1917 Artillery Luger Pics - Reblued?

[Frank H.]

Hi, "newbie" Frank Harvey in L.A. here, I've moved a topic here from "General Discussions" that started on the aspect of original Lugers and parts to replace to not damage them if they are going to be fired, on that thread I mentioned I got my first Luger and it looked to be "dead mint".

Maybe I bought a reblue? This is my very first Luger purchase, a 1917 Artillery Luger, my first reaction when I initially saw it (shipped from out of state, not-great photos prior to purchase), was "wow, much better condition than I expected".

All numbers match, wood bottom mag number matches, numbers inside both grips match, bore is very crisp and no pitting or noticeable wear, grip diamonds sharp, BUT, some suggestions were made that it might be re-worked a bit did get me wondering, and we can discuss that in this thread.

I lightly rubbed the gun down with Breakfree and photos taken at night with flash, in person it's not as dark / deep blue, in person it seems to me to be the more usual old DWM blue, but IS it a re-finished job... Some aspects seem dead mint and not with some of the usual re-blue tip-offs, a few other aspects have me wondering.

I appreciate in advance everyone's thoughts on this, here's the best photo's I could do, sized down and compressed for minimum file size, thanks in advance for your thoughts and opinions!

Frank H. in L.A. (I figured out the thumbnails, so click for large images).

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/leftsfoff.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/leftsfoff.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

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<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/rtfull.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/rtfull.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/rtsight.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/rtsight.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/top_copy4.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/top_copy4.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

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<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/leftgrpoff.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/leftgrpoff.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/bore.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/bore.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

[George Anderson]

Frank, it's a very nicely done reblue. There appear to be pits under the blue on the grip frame, and both the side plate and stock lug indicate that the pistol has not seen any appreciable service since bluing.

The reblue job appears so good that I might even think it has passed through Ted's studio.

[Thor]

I just checked my records and it is NOT one of my restorations. I dont see any bluing down in the numbers of the rear sight. The fat section of the rear of the barrel looks a little to smooth to me to be factory. Someone did a nice job retaining the stamped markings and keeping the edges sharp. A nice looking Artillery!

[Ron Wood]

Ted,
It looks like a DWM barrel rather than the usual Erfurt, and the DWMs seem to have a smoother finish and a less pronounced transition from the concave to the cylindrical contour on the fat section. I will not dispute the observations of two of the most knowledgeable individuals when it comes to artilleries and restoration, but this one would certainly fool me. It is a nice looking piece.

[Thor]

Yes, Ron, you are right of course, the Erfurts are rougher. Just thought this one looked too smooth! Here is a picture of a 1917 DWM from Jan's site. But hey, what can you tell from a picture! On both pistols they looks like Erfurt eagles on the barrel so maybe that has something to do with smoothness?

[Ron Wood]

Ted,
I don't disagree that it is a refinish, just observing that it is a really good job. I do stand corrected about the barrel. To these old eyes the proof looked like a DWM, but now that you have posted an example, it does look like the usual Erfurt barrel. Oh well, guess I should stop trying to assess what I am seeing in pictures, just don't seem to be as keen as I once was.

[Dwight Gruber]

This is a really gorgeous restoration. Note the sear bar spring and center toggle pin are both fire-blued, and it looks like the front sight may be as well. It looks like the interior of the frame may be properly polished. The dead giveaway is the wear mark under the thumb safety, which has been blued over.

But take a look at the sideplate, particularly the bevel angle where the vertical and horizontal machining meet. On an original sideplate the bevel line is a 45�º angle. On this piece the vertical machining is slightly deeper, making the bevel line almost vertical.

I have examined a couple of Lugers presented to me as Gale Morgan restorations, and they both exhibited this sideplate characteristic.

--Dwight

[John Sabato]

A VERY nicely restored artillery... the "softness" of the chamfer lines at the front of the receiver are also an indicator that this gun was buffed. It is hard to keep these lines sharp without losing some of the flatness of the side of the receiver.

This is a keeper even if it HAS been refinished... Consider it preserved for your heirs and posterity!

[Pete Ebbink]

Hello Frank H.,

What a nice looking LP-08...hope you were able to pick her up at a decent (appropriate) price.

Your gun's vg bore condition now matches its external condition...

I would wager that more than a few folks here on the LF have nicely refinished pistols in their collections...this is a LP-08 to be proud !

Now you have that difficult decision...to shoot or not to shoot... I am sure you will get lots of compliments on the range...if you take her out from time to time...

I was able to pick up this Roth-Steyr M1907 awhile back. Its bore was simply mint and I loved the refinish craftmanship...and cost only $ 650...this is one of my most enjoyable pieces in my gun safe...

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/m1907_1_copy1.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/m1907_1_copy1.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

p.s. Does you 1917 LP-08 have the adjustable front sight ?

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[Thor]

Ron, dont short yourself! Your Luger knowledge and collection is awesome! Your kindly ways and gentleman manners are quite admirable as well! Your expertise in these matters make this forum vibrant! Please continue to teach us about Lugers!

[Frank H.]

Frank H. in L.A. back here,

a) Thanks for the expertise, observations and honesty,

b) Keep them coming, for those who might just now have opened this thread or who have additional thoughts to share.

As this was my VERY first Luger purchase, (actually literally the first I've had in my hand even), my first reaction was "shock" at the great condition of the gun, followed by "could it be a re-blue"; the very initial look-over seemed like the right "kind" of bluing and the usual dopey-rounded edges of a poor job weren't evident...

I've been busy with work so haven't had it in my hands much, then the wise comments on that "should you shoot it" thread got me to looking CLOSE at the gun.

Taking the grips off, I went "uh oh, I don't think the pitting here should be blued over... I don't think that's just porosity of the forging process..."

The grips are DEAD mint, if they are touched-up checkering somebody did a great job.

My guess is this gun must have been in pretty good shape to begin with, but had pitting issues at the grip straps, as looking close I can see a tiny dot of a blued over pit still present on both the front and back strap, some slight "waveryness", slight, and the other sections of the gun don't look like they needed much attention.

I paid $2,050 for this... I actually gave the guy $100 more than he was asking if he would hold it for me, while I got my money together for 2 weeks. I'm tempted to get back in touch with him re: his "not full disclosure" description, and at least ask for the $100 back...

I know there's the aspect of "a re-work, re-blue drops collectible value to half", then again as expressed by others here, a basically sound gun that needs cosmetic help is enhanced by a reblue...

Value of the gun to me? ...well, in a way I'm ok on it not being a full "original", as I would consider shooting this one now, and wouldn't be so worried every time I touched it.

But, a bit of a let-down, re: "lookie what I found!"

It's a beautiful gun. It will be easy to maintain it in this condition, as it won't be rained on in trenches and in addition to the Breakfree and Remoil and Clenzoil I now have Eezox and Renaissance Wax en-route to me, LOL.

I can take it doc, what are everyone's thoughts as to value, and what I paid for it? I'm at least glad the bore is nice, and mechanically it seems "great".

Frank H.

Here's the bottom of the mag: (I thumbnailed it, click for full size)

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/bottommag.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/bottommag.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

[George Anderson]

Frank, the mag is a counterfeit. Your call on position but my thoughts are this; I have restored a super pistol that would be improved by such a restoration. I have never boosted a magazine in order to improve the condition of a pistol. The only reasons to counterfeit a magazine are either to deceive ones self or to cheat another.

[Frank H.]

George, thanks for the insight on the mag, I wanted to show it as I had doubts myself, though I'm a newbie and this is my first Luger. The mag appeared "worked" to me, and in different condition than the rest of the gun. Thanks again for the scoop.

Dwight mentioned the cosmetics looked a bit like a Gale Morgan restoration, if this was one of his I wonder if he'd have done the mag. I guess someone was pretty anxious to have it be "all matching".

The sad note of the status of the mag aside, thanks also for any feedback from everyone re: "what your gut-vibe of actual value is", I'm interested more to see to what degree I overpaid if that ends up seeming the case. Very nice gun, very fun to hold and enjoy, and probably shoot as well (since it's "not" a mint original...)

Frank H.

[ViggoG]

Hi Thor,
One Question for the GURU ?
Is it usual for the stock attachment groove to show as much pitting as there appears here ?
I would guess a refinish based on the lack of tool marks in the groove and the pitting where it seems to me that tool marks should appear .
ViggoG

[Pete Ebbink]

Hi Frank H.,

A decent matching shooter luger Artillery in No. Calif. can easily run from $ 1000 to $ 1200. This is a luger with original matching parts and finish at 60-70%.

Then to have an artist like Thor do a restoration would add another $ 450-500 or so...so you would be at $ 1450 to $ 1700...if this gun is a Gale Morgan restoration that would have cost you more if you paid for it...(I hear Gale's work can run over $ 1000...).

So you paid a bit more ($ 300 to $500) if you had started with your own shooter LP-08 and then sought out a professional restoration artist.

Nevertheless, you ended up with a very nice Artillery that you should enjoy for years and shoot from time to time...the bit of extra money you paid might just be the "lesson learned" factor most of us run into with our first few luger purchases...

You could have done worse. I know of a LF member that bought nearly 20 or so lugers when he first started out and before he realized all were "messed with" as his educational curve ramped up...(and no, this fellow is not me... ).

p.s. As Dwight's side-by-side photos of the trigger plates show, your plate has had a lot more metal removed from the flat part of the "island" on the side plate than the comparison, original photo posted by Dwight. This might indicate that part of your side plate had lots of wear and or pitting that could only be removed by removal of some of the metal of the "island"...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[George Anderson]

Frank H, I see nothing wrong with the lug as far as pitting goes, just the lack of wear.

As to value, I too have a reblued 1917 artillery. I bought it a few years ago on gunbroker because it had red nine grips. It was almost "in the white" when I got it but it appeared that the bluing had been removed chemically. No buffing. All parts were original and matched to the pistol except the left grip. I paid $800 for it.

I arranged with Ted Green to have it reblued and off it went. I believe I paid between five and six hundred bucks for Ted's salon work. As I told Ted at the time, my only complaint was that it looked too good. His response was that that's the way it's supposed to look. I couldn't argue with him on that so I commenced to shooting it and lugging it around naked in a holster.

A typical outing would be about two trommelmags through it and 5-8 regular mags. Great fun. Now back to the question of value.

I decided to sell the pistol and put it out on my table at a couple of gunshows with a $2200 tag on it. A friend asked why the hell I would sell my shooter and what would I replace it with. I took it off the table and stuck it back in its holster. It would cost at least that much for me to replace it with a comparable LP08.

If you enjoy your pistol, you did alright. As things are going, should you decide to sell it in several years, you will probably be able to recover your cost.

[Dwight Gruber]

Frank,

Thanks for submitting your fine LP-08 for public scrutiny and comment. It has engendered an excellent discussioin.

--Dwight

[Frank H.]

I've got a good update to tell!

First off, thanks to each of you for the great insights and the words of wisdom, your experience and expertise is very much appreciated.

I bought this gun from out of state, after an auction that got no bids, the seller had good feedback and I have good feedback, we arranged our transaction.

I wrote him back last night, and "gently" detailed to him with photos and text, the blued over pitting, the lack of even the slightest mark from where there should have been toggle contact at the back of the frame, and I passed along several of the great comments you all pointed out to me.

I quoted his ad, which expressed "best one I've seen, great for a collector", and just really made him look at the whole thing, how it was described vs. what it is, while clearly expressing I didn't suspect he knew and was trying to mislead me (didn't want to alienate him).

I asked for a compromise settlement price of $1,700 instead of the $2,050 I did pay him, as a rough beater could be sent out for $600 to be a nice looking "shooter", force matched etc. if one was going to go that far, but the re-sale value wasn't what I'd paid for it.

We compromised at $1,800 with him admitting that's what he'd paid for it. He's returning some of my money! Better than a sharp stick and a letter from the IRS.

I owe you guys, thanks, and to at least in some small way show some thanks as I can, that mis-match shooter I picked up on Gunbroker for $605, I'll send out to Ted for strawing the 5 small parts with some of my "returned money".

Hopefully over time I'll be able to contribute something of value to each of you, but I'll start with Ted which is really just another gift to me, that strawing will really perk up this duckling in the rough.

Again thanks everybody, I gained a "shooter artillery" in the process, gained knowledge and hopefully some wisdom for the future, and with your help I managed to not get boned so bad with the purchase price.

Frank H. in L.A.

[Ron Smith]

Frank in LA, Things always seem to work out. Just post some good photos of the shooter when you get it back from Ted. We all enjoy looking at nice Lugers.
Best of Luck! Ron

[Pete Ebbink]

Hi Frank,

Glad to hear things worked out. The seller sounded like a nice fellow to resolve matters with...

Since you live in the lower part of our State, you might want to come up to the Reno gun show in the middle of August. Usually 6-10 LF members are there and lots of lugers and luger holsters to see on the selling tables.

Even if one does not buy, you can see many original lugers versus refinished lugers on the tables (and some refinished ones being represented as original). Quite educational...

Quite a cheap way to visit the show and learn about lugers and to meet some very great luger "nuts"...

If you plan to attend, book a hotel ASAP as they go fast and rates get high at the last minute...

We all hang out at tables A-13/A-14 with LF member Russ Withem and his friends. There is usually a dutch-treat steak dinner on Friday night with some lively luger discussions...

Here is the show link :

http://www.bigrenoshow.com/

We usually post a "head count" announcement in the Gunshow section a week or so before the show...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />