Faked, refinished and boosted Lugers.

[wterrell]

Uh Oh! You aren't supposed to catch on this quickly.

[John D.]

[quote]Originally posted by wes:
<strong>Uh Oh! You aren't supposed to catch on this quickly.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well - I did - and now I know for sure - that this isn't a great idea!!! [img]smile.gif[/img]

<img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[nono]" /> <img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" /> <img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" />

[Herb]

<img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" /> He,he,he, John, you only get one guess!

[Orv Reichert]

YOU! of course...I am too busy with the P38's

Orv

[Edward Tinker]

John (and others), I would imagine that there is someone that has extreme interest in this and could be given permissions to run that one section of the forum?

Others should put their wisdom to good use, [img]wink.gif[/img]

[Dwight Gruber]

[quote]Originally posted by John D.:
<strong>

Hey wait a minute - before I get sucked into this conversation any further.. Just who are you nominating to program, build, design, host, support and manage this "Registry"???!!!

[img]eek.gif[/img] [img]confused.gif[/img] <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" /> <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" /> <img src="graemlins/oops.gif" border="0" alt="[oops]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

And before -I- get into too much trouble here, I am not necessarily promoting this feature (well, maybe just a little bit, I think it is kind of a good idea), my original intent was to summarize the ideas in this thread [img]rolleyes.gif[/img]

--Dwight

[John D.]

[quote]Originally posted by Orv Reichert:
<strong>YOU! of course...I am too busy with the P38's....</strong><hr></blockquote>


Hi Orv..!!!

(Shhesssh - that reminds me - I gotta get your new table up on the P-38 Forum, too..!!!)..!! OK...

I just read your earlier post - and maybe I can do this..?? I know I have a large Krieghoff database for my use - but that is largely paper based.. So, my questions are these:

When you set up your database - the "Identification sheet" - do you use them after you set up the information (what I'm getting to - is if I do this "on-line" - should it have a document management system where the IDENT sheets are a part of the "record"?

I know how you said you talk about the "source" as being NAPCA or Forum, or whatever. Is there a need to retain the "real" user name/address?? I know I do in my Krieg database?

Do you keep pictures "on-file" as well for particuliar P-38s? And if so - are those used by you?

Sorry for all the questions - but I am seriously "scoping" out the task to start a Luger Registry for this group - and I'm now reconciled I'd probably be the guy who got "volunteered" - not that I'm complaining, as I do something similiar for my own area of interest [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Garfield]

Don't know if this issue has been decided. Believe that the concept is an excellent one. All discussions have been very good. IMHO it should be added.

Regards

[Orv Reichert]

John...I don't keep the source documents or data. I just load it into the program..then throw the crap away. I don't have the room or inclination to keep all that stuff.

I set up [1985] a dBASE file...and, now, am being forced into transferring over to something else as my Win2000pro does not like the 16 bit base dBASE 4 ... My computer pro suggests ACCESS so he is reviewing my data and program to make the needed adjustments.

The source is important when you find a matching mag...or a serious question comes up? I do have a few photos but I don't make an effort to keep/collect them!

I am sending a copy of a database I made up years ago for the H&K guns...I never got farther than entering a few from Gibson and misc sources. [check your email]

Orv

[John D.]

Hi Orv..!

Thanks so much for the info - it really helps (also got the attachment you sent via e-mail - thanks! [img]smile.gif[/img]

Now - in looking at the base of information and a database, it really appears similiar to another system I already have programmed - that does database look-ups on Porsche Part numbers. You can seach by number, partial numbers, description, etc. To see what I mean - try this link - and imagine that rather then entering car part numbers, you were looking for a serial number in a block, or "Commercial" as part of the description, etc. OK - here is the link:

Parts Look up database

In there - I run an ACCESS database front-end with System DSN calls to SQL Server on a system behind my firewalls. It also is pretty quick, given that I think there are about 50,000 - 60,000 parts in the database...

Now, while I'm still not commiting to do this(!!!) - it could be that my existing technology could address some of the more immediate questions. As well - I may have an idea - that "could" work, to limit access to *only* those registered to POST (not just browse) these Forums - so it wouldn't be "open" to any "public" passer bys...???

Interesting concept...! Thanks again Orv..!!

[policeluger]

No one here in California, at least for right now, wants us to regester car, as a means of car control. Car clubs do not fear VIN numbers, as we fear gun grabbers. As for my 2 cents worth, your first gun buy should be in books and visiting as many shows as possible, nothing bets knowledge. I remember years ago a seller at the LA Great Western show allowed me to take a complete Luger rig over to Jan Still, who so kindly gave me information as too the gun being correct and what too look for. That pistol is still in my collection, th e buyer needs to beware, and informed. It is not the same group of good 'ol boys selling guns as it was 40 years ago. The cheats out there waiting too make a buck, at your loss of knowledge is just sadding.

[Orv Reichert]

Hey...when I was hot-rodding in the '50s...they tried to outlaw hot rods by passing a fender law.. a headlight law [min 27" to center of light' and other laws to protect us from our 'BAD' cars!

It is the same group of idiots...

Gun laws will be as successful at stopping crime as car registration has been successful in stopping DUI!

Orv Reichert

[Gene]

Gentlemen:

When dealing with fakes and refinishes, perhaps what would be important is to always explain in detail exactly How or Why something is considered/determined to be a fake or refinish, rather than simply pronounce an item as such. Then, each person can decide for himself whether something is faked/refinished or not, and apply the same reasoning to anything else that is encountered in the future. Otherwise, it would seem all too easy for any list to become a "blacklist," always subject to the pronouncements of "experts," without any improvements in true understanding.

When dealing with boosted pieces in which the alteration is indistinguishable from the original, however, the only way to determine if an item has been boosted appears to be through its history and provenance.

Regards,
Gene

[wterrell]

Gene,

I do not know that we would want to label any gun as a fake or altered, but merely document the gun as to markings, condition, mechanical, model, features, etc. Each person should decide for himself whether something is faked/refinished, by study and knowledge.

We could also mention whether a certain feature of the gun was correct/incorrect for the issue or model. This would aid any purchaser or owner in knowing if a gun has been altered since it was documented. Also this would cause any profiteer to pause before enhancing the gun.

I agree that any pronouncements or opinions of "experts" would result in a registry being a blacklist and would only hurt our hobby.

[Edward Tinker]

Gene and wes, I think both are good ideas, telling us guys what to look for sounds very valuable to us!

So, if there are comments, it would be very helpful to tell us why you believe that is a messed up or modified (boosted) Luger.

[Lugerlvr]

Reply to original message "National Luger Collectors Association" This is a great idea! There are enough of us, and Lugers are so popular, even with others who never use this forum, that it makes sense. We could elect directors at large, from several areas of the hobby, as well as a database of collectors, dealers, and shooters. The board could investegate alleged fraud, misrepresentation, etc. and act on behalf of it's members to resolve disagreements with dealers, and protect our common interest. We could make several positive improvements in this hobby, and area of collecting. I, for one would offer to be a board member, but have no computer expertise, and have no idea how to go about starting one!
GREAT IDEA!!!!! Anyone in the association would be held to the highest ethical standards and practices, with no one "grandfathered in"

Der Waffen Sammler <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" /> <img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" />

[Jan C Still]

Dear Folks
Everyone has excellent ideas! I think its more important that a discussion concerning the very real problem of fakes, refinishes and boosted Lugers take place than the exact details of the discussion format (it is up to the moderator). However, as many of the problems are common to all the Luger variations, the discussion would be better served if it took place under one heading.

Remember the next time you go to a gun show or visit a dealer.
Know the reputation of the seller.
Dont depend on the seller to provide accurate information.
Know the details of the finish, serial range, and markings on the Luger variation you are looking for.
Look critically at your potential purchase.
If The potential purchase is supposed to be 80 years old and the finish looks almost new it probably is.
Once you buy it, its yours.
Jan C. Still

[Herb]

Jan good input. I have a concern about an honest and trusted gun show seller that has little knowledge about Luger's in particular. He may have been the victim of a 'booster' without knowing it. He honestly presents the Luger as he knows it to be, feeling that he is presenting it as an all original or whatever, and the purchaser later finds that it is a fake. Who is the victim in a case like this, does this make the vendor dishonest, or also a victim in the transaction? I feel that a vendor, someone that does not specialize in Lugers and buys and sells for profit is not necessarily an informed individual in the area of Lugers. The final decision to buy has to be made by the buyer armed with all of the information that is avaiable. This forum is one of those tools that will help, but it is difficult to take the forum to the gun show. Buyer Beware! A theif might steal all of your possesions, but he can never steal your knowledge.

[Pete Ebbink]

Hey Herb,

I like your "wisdom teeth" saying at the end of your posts, but unfortunately most folks had their wisdom teeth pulled; so we really need more help... [img]wink.gif[/img]

On a serious note; let's say one buys a luger then later on finds out it is a fake, refinished, or boosted gun. Assuming too much time has passed for any recourse with the previous seller, what does the current buyer do ?

Here lies the real ethics test...

Some options I could see are :

1. Sell it to the next un-informed buyer (not ethical in my book). But I suspect this might happen alot...

2. Keep it in your collection as that "lesson learned" luger. And make it one of your shooters...

3. Sell it on its true merits (presummably at some loss).

Would love to hear how the major luger collectors on the Forum have handled this...I assume each has had this happen, maybe very early in your luger collecting careers...

[Herb]

Pete, I personally haven't had this happen yet but I guess it is just a matter of time. I got really burned in the late 80's on a German SS officers dress dagger. I paid $1030 for it as an all original, acutally included the SS oficers number. I contacted the director of the Berlin Document Center and requested his offical file. I recieved it and he was indeed an SS officer. I spent $100 bucks to send it to LTC (ret) Thomas Johnson an authority on such things and he sent his report, a very good fake!! Well, all things considered I still feel that it is original, but am very hesitant to present it as such because of his evaluation. The vendor I bought it from had the complete uniform of the SS officer that he purchased from his family. His SS number and name was embossed inside his uniform, every thing was in order. What am I to do?? I feel that it is authentic, a supposed expert thinks it is fake, where from here? This is one of the things that really bother me, if after doing my research, making a purchase, and then being told by a supposed expert that I got taken, what next? Who is the expert? I researched everything available and made a buy based upon that knowledge and I am now told I am the dummy. This is what bothers me about the idea of establixhing a site that touts originality, what is really original? The numbers, inspection stamps, rework acceptance stamps, repair stamps, you name it, are so varied that it is almost impossible to accrately state that "this is it". If a Luger barrel, for esxample, failed proof at the factory due to excessive head space, or out of tolerance land diameter, the barrel would be replaced, renumbered to the original number and would recieve a small stamp on the barrel indicating it is a replacement barrel. Does this make it 'non original' I don't think so, as it has not even left the factory yet.
We are going to open a can of worms here if we are not careful.