Faked, refinished and boosted Lugers. - Page 2

John D. · 06-07-2002, 10:47 PM

Hi All...

Yep - I'm still reading all these, as this subject still isn't closed (oh - and I just added the other two Forums). For that, many of you have terrific comments, examples and suggestions on a Forum based on Jan's suggestion - so please keep them coming, OK???

Best to all for a terrific weekend!

Jerry Harris · 06-08-2002, 01:39 AM

Big Norm asked what "boosting" is and didn't get a reply. I don't know what it means either, but I'll take a GUESS from context and maybe someone will be kind enough to correct me if needed.

Boosting must be different from faking or refinishing, so it probably means adding an identifier, such as a proof, to make a gun appear rarer than it is. An outrageous example might be stamping a certain script "GL" design on the tail of the rear toggle.

Ron Wood · 06-08-2002, 02:02 AM

I have heard the term "boosting" a few times and the context then was "touching up" thin blue, such as at the muzzle, frame rails and side plate to give a few more per-cent rating for the gun (i.e. boosting it from 95% to 98%). The same goes for enhancing the straw on the small parts. Unfortunately, this is becoming almost commonplace and more and more folks are getting pretty good at it. The straw is usually easy to spot, the blue is somewhat more difficult. If you have any question, take the piece out into the sunlight and look for inconsistancy in the color of the blue on any given part. Not always 100% effective but just one more check.

Dwight Gruber · 06-08-2002, 02:11 AM

Maybe I'm dense or being obvious here, but I get the sense of three distinct forum areas here:

1. A registry of known or owned Lugers and their salient features--all original; refinished or restored; proofs or markings present; unusual markings present; general condition; barrel length and caliber, of course--heck, Orv can probably even come up with some kind of template for this kind of thing. These guns need to be identified by serial#, of course, but no names.

2. A FAQ including the salient features of "proper" guns--where they are blued and where they are not, sharp edges, strawing or bluing, grip characteristics, etcetc. Also, the characteristics of known fakes.

3. A place for people to "bring" their guns, or prospective purchases, to have them identified and assessed. The terms "shooter" and "collector" as applied to individual guns are explicitly forbidden here. Dealers' names, or other sellers' names, may also be inappropriate here.

Am I on base?

--Dwight

Edward Tinker · 06-08-2002, 02:23 AM

Not bad Dwight:

1. A registry of known or owned Lugers...
This is an okay idea, but should probably be maintained individually. IMO

2. A FAQ including the salient features of "proper" guns--... Excellent Idea

3. A place for people to "bring" their guns, or prospective purchases, to have them identified and assessed. The terms "shooter" and "collector" as applied to individual guns are explicitly forbidden here. Dealers' names, or other sellers' names, may also be inappropriate here.

At first I didn't like how you didn't want to bring up the word shooter and collector, but then realized that you meant in this section ONLY, (sorry, me being dense) and I think this is an excellent idea, a section of the forum that has a warning banner that states, Opinions only and wanting a fair shake on what they have. Good idea Dwight, sounds to me like you got it down pat and you're doing good sir!

[img]smile.gif[/img]

wterrell · 06-08-2002, 10:21 AM

Dwight,
A Registry is the obvious answer to a multitude of problems concerning authenticity of individual Lugers. However, a registry would turn into a dead letter eventually if maintained by an individual. It would take years to compile and would have to be a "for profit" item, which would cause it to eventually ceased to be expanded revised.

BUT!!!!!.....if there were a Luger Collectors Association of America, with a board of directors, elected by dues-paying members......

What do you think? [img]rolleyes.gif[/img]

Regards,
wes

Dwight Gruber · 06-08-2002, 10:48 AM

Actually, I was thinking "Registry" as an element of the Luger Forum, one of those left-side-of-the-page items. People would have to volunteer the info on their Lugers. Benefit would be seen, at least conceptually, as soon as somebody sells one of their Lugers. Of course, who here actually -sells- one of their guns... [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

--Dwight

John D. · 06-08-2002, 11:27 AM

Hi Dwight,

Boy - that's a tough sell... I don't think many would want to post full serial numbers and other identifying marks on each Luger in their personal collection on an Internet site. I sure wouldn't!!! [img]eek.gif[/img]

wterrell · 06-08-2002, 11:33 AM

John D.,

Would ownership of a gun need to be associated with the gun?

John D. · 06-08-2002, 11:37 AM

[quote]Originally posted by wes:
Would ownership of a gun need to be associated with the gun?<hr></blockquote>

I would think so - for if info was needed that wasn't contained in the registry - there would have to be a "point" of contact from the person who entered the info (JP brought up the NAPCA exchange a bit ago, for example).. I can't imagine building a registry database that would be so complete - that no questions would ever need to be asked about a Luger in the future..?? Just my $0.00002...

wterrell · 06-08-2002, 11:50 AM

John,

At some time in the future, I may find that I agree with you on this point, but for the moment let us consider whether or not we would trust the voluntary description of a gun by its owner.

Any reliable, permanent, authentic discription of the markings, condition, finish, and mechanical condition of a gun would have to be done by committee, not the voluntary, biased assessment of an owner.

Edward Tinker · 06-08-2002, 12:10 PM

[quote] .. I don't think many would want to post full serial numbers and other identifying marks on each Luger in their personal collection on an Internet site. <hr></blockquote>

John, a number of years ago they made up a book on thousands of Mustang (Car) entries of full VIN numbers, addresses and names. It was all voluntary but you can look at the ones that people had their actual old original paperwork and see within days when your mustang was built. Very cool.

I actually don't understand the concern of putting your serial number out in the open?

wterrell · 06-08-2002, 12:21 PM

Let us consider the value of a Luger that has been described in print or "documented" in one of the many Luger books. It's value is immediately vaulted and there is no fool on the face of the earth that would alter the gun in any manner.

And.......usually the only mention of ownership is "private collection" or the location of the museum. Mailing address is not mentioned.

John D. · 06-08-2002, 12:25 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Edward Tinker:

I actually don't understand the concern of putting your serial number out in the open?<hr></blockquote>

Well - I do run a similiar "Registry" for Porsche owners with thousands of of users listed. Including VIN, e-mail address and state. I have my cars listed in those same registries as well. Maybe I'm the one who is being too conservative - because at the same time - I would never consider listing anything from my private Luger collection into a Registry on the Internet - even if I was the one who maintained it.. [img]frown.gif[/img]

wterrell · 06-08-2002, 12:27 PM

John,

Should it be a registry of owners? or of guns?

Orv Reichert · 06-08-2002, 12:29 PM

I think it is useless to talk about Lugers unless you fully identify the gun. Then, later, when that Luger with a M/M sideplate shows up with all matching numbers, two #'d mags, a matching stock, and GL on the toggle, you will be able to dissuade the hapless new owner of his belief that the seller was not boosting a sale when he said it came out of private collection in the northeast where it had been kept wrapped in towel under a sofa for 50 years.

My P38 list [now 19,250 entries] shows 'source' but in many cases [or when requested] I show source as 'NAPCA' or 'Forum'. Most are reported but not owned so I don't see any big deal.

Several big collectors have had a code name assigned...just in case!

When cooperating with an author, I 'purge' that info anyway!

If one guy has reported over 3000...you don't think the GunGestapo is going to look to him for ownership, do you?

When I die, the list will live on. [I am 73 this week!] Perhaps it will not be updated, but I have arranged for Tom Knox, President of NAPCA to receive a CD with the data and instructions on sharing the info. My son will forward the CD when necessary.

I just found another matching mag for a gun reported 10 years ago....In this case, I know where the gun is!

Orv

John D. · 06-08-2002, 12:32 PM

[quote]Originally posted by wes:
Let us consider the value of a Luger that has been described in print or "documented" in one of the many Luger books. It's value is immediately vaulted.<hr></blockquote>

Yea - but I think the difference is the "media". You have to "buy" those books, and some are rather expensive to access that information. On the Internet - I'm not convinced that all the folks who visit a site have "collectors" - or even gun owner - interests at heart, especially if that information and documentation is able to be publicly accessed..??

Nope - I'm still not convinced a "Registry" would work...???
[img]confused.gif[/img]

wterrell · 06-08-2002, 12:40 PM

John,

I am not in favor of posting a registry on the net. Please do not even consider for a moment that I want that.

I believe that print is the way to go, but I realize that print has to be funded.

Dwight Gruber · 06-08-2002, 12:55 PM

[quote]Originally posted by John D.:
Hi Dwight,

Boy - that's a tough sell... I don't think many would want to post full serial numbers and other identifying marks on each Luger in their personal collection on an Internet site. I sure wouldn't!!! [img]eek.gif[/img] <hr></blockquote>

No names involved, just the gun info.

John D. · 06-08-2002, 01:42 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Dwight Gruber:


No names involved, just the gun info.<hr></blockquote>

Hey wait a minute - before I get sucked into this conversation any further.. Just who are you nominating to program, build, design, host, support and manage this "Registry"???!!!

[img]eek.gif[/img] [img]confused.gif[/img] <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" /> <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" /> <img src="graemlins/oops.gif" border="0" alt="[oops]" />

06-08-2002, 02:02 AM	#23
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	I have heard the term "boosting" a few times and the context then was "touching up" thin blue, such as at the muzzle, frame rails and side plate to give a few more per-cent rating for the gun (i.e. boosting it from 95% to 98%). The same goes for enhancing the straw on the small parts. Unfortunately, this is becoming almost commonplace and more and more folks are getting pretty good at it. The straw is usually easy to spot, the blue is somewhat more difficult. If you have any question, take the piece out into the sunlight and look for inconsistancy in the color of the blue on any given part. Not always 100% effective but just one more check. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

06-08-2002, 02:23 AM	#25
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	Not bad Dwight: 1. A registry of known or owned Lugers... This is an okay idea, but should probably be maintained individually. IMO 2. A FAQ including the salient features of "proper" guns--... Excellent Idea 3. A place for people to "bring" their guns, or prospective purchases, to have them identified and assessed. The terms "shooter" and "collector" as applied to individual guns are explicitly forbidden here. Dealers' names, or other sellers' names, may also be inappropriate here. At first I didn't like how you didn't want to bring up the word shooter and collector, but then realized that you meant in this section ONLY, (sorry, me being dense) and I think this is an excellent idea, a section of the forum that has a warning banner that states, Opinions only and wanting a fair shake on what they have. Good idea Dwight, sounds to me like you got it down pat and you're doing good sir! [img]smile.gif[/img] __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

06-08-2002, 10:21 AM	#26
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Dwight, A Registry is the obvious answer to a multitude of problems concerning authenticity of individual Lugers. However, a registry would turn into a dead letter eventually if maintained by an individual. It would take years to compile and would have to be a "for profit" item, which would cause it to eventually ceased to be expanded revised. BUT!!!!!.....if there were a Luger Collectors Association of America, with a board of directors, elected by dues-paying members...... What do you think? [img]rolleyes.gif[/img] Regards, wes __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

06-08-2002, 11:33 AM	#29
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	John D., Would ownership of a gun need to be associated with the gun? __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

06-08-2002, 11:37 AM	#30
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 471 Thanked 513 Times in 127 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by wes: <strong>Would ownership of a gun need to be associated with the gun?</strong><hr></blockquote> I would think so - for if info was needed that wasn't contained in the registry - there would have to be a "point" of contact from the person who entered the info (JP brought up the NAPCA exchange a bit ago, for example).. I can't imagine building a registry database that would be so complete - that no questions would ever need to be asked about a Luger in the future..?? Just my $0.00002...

06-07-2002, 10:47 PM	#21
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 471 Thanked 513 Times in 127 Posts	Hi All... Yep - I'm still reading all these, as this subject still isn't closed (oh - and I just added the other two Forums). For that, many of you have terrific comments, examples and suggestions on a Forum based on Jan's suggestion - so please keep them coming, OK??? Best to all for a terrific weekend!

06-08-2002, 01:39 AM	#22
Jerry Harris User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 64 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Big Norm asked what "boosting" is and didn't get a reply. I don't know what it means either, but I'll take a GUESS from context and maybe someone will be kind enough to correct me if needed. Boosting must be different from faking or refinishing, so it probably means adding an identifier, such as a proof, to make a gun appear rarer than it is. An outrageous example might be stamping a certain script "GL" design on the tail of the rear toggle.

06-08-2002, 02:11 AM	#24
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,889 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,281 Times in 423 Posts	Maybe I'm dense or being obvious here, but I get the sense of three distinct forum areas here: 1. A registry of known or owned Lugers and their salient features--all original; refinished or restored; proofs or markings present; unusual markings present; general condition; barrel length and caliber, of course--heck, Orv can probably even come up with some kind of template for this kind of thing. These guns need to be identified by serial#, of course, but no names. 2. A FAQ including the salient features of "proper" guns--where they are blued and where they are not, sharp edges, strawing or bluing, grip characteristics, etcetc. Also, the characteristics of known fakes. 3. A place for people to "bring" their guns, or prospective purchases, to have them identified and assessed. The terms "shooter" and "collector" as applied to individual guns are explicitly forbidden here. Dealers' names, or other sellers' names, may also be inappropriate here. Am I on base? --Dwight

06-08-2002, 10:48 AM	#27
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,889 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,281 Times in 423 Posts	Actually, I was thinking "Registry" as an element of the Luger Forum, one of those left-side-of-the-page items. People would have to volunteer the info on their Lugers. Benefit would be seen, at least conceptually, as soon as somebody sells one of their Lugers. Of course, who here actually -sells- one of their guns... [img]biggrin.gif[/img] --Dwight

06-08-2002, 11:27 AM	#28
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 471 Thanked 513 Times in 127 Posts	Hi Dwight, Boy - that's a tough sell... I don't think many would want to post full serial numbers and other identifying marks on each Luger in their personal collection on an Internet site. I sure wouldn't!!! [img]eek.gif[/img]

06-08-2002, 11:50 AM	#31
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	John, At some time in the future, I may find that I agree with you on this point, but for the moment let us consider whether or not we would trust the voluntary description of a gun by its owner. Any reliable, permanent, authentic discription of the markings, condition, finish, and mechanical condition of a gun would have to be done by committee, not the voluntary, biased assessment of an owner. __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

06-08-2002, 12:10 PM	#32
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	[quote] .. I don't think many would want to post full serial numbers and other identifying marks on each Luger in their personal collection on an Internet site. <hr></blockquote> John, a number of years ago they made up a book on thousands of Mustang (Car) entries of full VIN numbers, addresses and names. It was all voluntary but you can look at the ones that people had their actual old original paperwork and see within days when your mustang was built. Very cool. I actually don't understand the concern of putting your serial number out in the open? __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

06-08-2002, 12:21 PM	#33
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Let us consider the value of a Luger that has been described in print or "documented" in one of the many Luger books. It's value is immediately vaulted and there is no fool on the face of the earth that would alter the gun in any manner. And.......usually the only mention of ownership is "private collection" or the location of the museum. Mailing address is not mentioned. __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

06-08-2002, 12:25 PM	#34
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 471 Thanked 513 Times in 127 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by Edward Tinker: <strong> I actually don't understand the concern of putting your serial number out in the open?</strong><hr></blockquote> Well - I do run a similiar "Registry" for Porsche owners with thousands of of users listed. Including VIN, e-mail address and state. I have my cars listed in those same registries as well. Maybe I'm the one who is being too conservative - because at the same time - I would never consider listing anything from my private Luger collection into a Registry on the Internet - even if I was the one who maintained it.. [img]frown.gif[/img]

06-08-2002, 12:27 PM	#35
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	John, Should it be a registry of owners? or of guns? __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

06-08-2002, 12:29 PM	#36
Orv Reichert RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SW Washington State Posts: 339 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I think it is useless to talk about Lugers unless you fully identify the gun. Then, later, when that Luger with a M/M sideplate shows up with all matching numbers, two #'d mags, a matching stock, and GL on the toggle, you will be able to dissuade the hapless new owner of his belief that the seller was not boosting a sale when he said it came out of private collection in the northeast where it had been kept wrapped in towel under a sofa for 50 years. My P38 list [now 19,250 entries] shows 'source' but in many cases [or when requested] I show source as 'NAPCA' or 'Forum'. Most are reported but not owned so I don't see any big deal. Several big collectors have had a code name assigned...just in case! When cooperating with an author, I 'purge' that info anyway! If one guy has reported over 3000...you don't think the GunGestapo is going to look to him for ownership, do you? When I die, the list will live on. [I am 73 this week!] Perhaps it will not be updated, but I have arranged for Tom Knox, President of NAPCA to receive a CD with the data and instructions on sharing the info. My son will forward the CD when necessary. I just found another matching mag for a gun reported 10 years ago....In this case, I know where the gun is! Orv __________________ ORVEL L. "ORV" REICHERT

06-08-2002, 12:32 PM	#37
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 471 Thanked 513 Times in 127 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by wes: <strong>Let us consider the value of a Luger that has been described in print or "documented" in one of the many Luger books. It's value is immediately vaulted.</strong><hr></blockquote> Yea - but I think the difference is the "media". You have to "buy" those books, and some are rather expensive to access that information. On the Internet - I'm not convinced that all the folks who visit a site have "collectors" - or even gun owner - interests at heart, especially if that information and documentation is able to be publicly accessed..?? Nope - I'm still not convinced a "Registry" would work...??? [img]confused.gif[/img]

06-08-2002, 12:40 PM	#38
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	John, I am not in favor of posting a registry on the net. Please do not even consider for a moment that I want that. I believe that print is the way to go, but I realize that print has to be funded. __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

06-08-2002, 12:55 PM	#39
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,889 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,281 Times in 423 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by John D.: <strong>Hi Dwight, Boy - that's a tough sell... I don't think many would want to post full serial numbers and other identifying marks on each Luger in their personal collection on an Internet site. I sure wouldn't!!! [img]eek.gif[/img] </strong><hr></blockquote> No names involved, just the gun info.

06-08-2002, 01:42 PM	#40
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 471 Thanked 513 Times in 127 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by Dwight Gruber: <strong> No names involved, just the gun info.</strong><hr></blockquote> Hey wait a minute - before I get sucked into this conversation any further.. Just who are you nominating to program, build, design, host, support and manage this "Registry"???!!! [img]eek.gif[/img] [img]confused.gif[/img] <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" /> <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" /> <img src="graemlins/oops.gif" border="0" alt="[oops]" />