Faked, refinished and boosted Lugers.

Jan C Still · 06-06-2002, 05:29 PM

How about a section dealing with faked, refinished, and boosted Lugers. Such Lugers are sold as correct at most gun shows, auctions, and dealers lists. They pose a particular problem for the new collector who often finds that he was burned well after the fact. If we deal with the details of the particular Luger under consideration and not the personalities of the owner or seller it should prove very helpful.
Jan C.Still

Greg · 06-06-2002, 05:32 PM

I think that with those parameters, it could be a very valuable section!!!

Herb · 06-06-2002, 06:59 PM

Jan, I think you have a good idea there. My concern is that there are so many, possibly thousands of variations, that this would be a real nightmare. My research has led me to believe that everytime a Luger went back for repair of something, or perhaps just an adjustment, someone added an inspection stamp or other mark. This is probably why all original, never repaired or adjusted Lugers have less inspection or 'proof' stamps than those that had several repairs. I have no proof of this but I suspect that even the unit armorers used stamps when parts were replaced. What are your thoughts on this?

Dan Clemons · 06-06-2002, 07:27 PM

Hi Jan:

I am glad you brought this subject up. I am just coming up to speed on this subject. Sharing what others look for is a great idea. The last three Lugers that I looked at were returned. It never hurts to have a sharp eye and an uninterested friend look at your purchase. Each Luger has its own story. We just need to know where and what to look for is all. Why not share those ideas here?

Dan

John D. · 06-06-2002, 10:08 PM

Hi Jan and all..!

I thought I'd post my comments back into the threads themselves - as I just touched on this in the "Unit Markings thread:
Unit Marking Thread but figured I should post my replies into each thread - to keep that thread open to something further thoughts/comments.

In short - I like the idea - but perhaps this is more specific as to how a fake is spotted determined within particuliar variations themselves - unlike a shooters/reloading forum - which spans several "eras" and interests? That being said - this Forum is still new - so I really appreciate the comments and suggestions for improvements - and invite your thoughts back!

Best to all..!

TC · 06-06-2002, 11:07 PM

sorry, but unless jan or kenyon or some other luger expert can inspect every luger questioned on this new board then there bound to be problems simply because we are all human, we make mistakes and often speak or type without thinking.

a big can of worms if you ask me. <img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[nono]" />

Jan C Still · 06-07-2002, 02:09 AM

TC
I don't consider myself an expert at detecting fakes and refinishes, but I know enough about finishes, markings, variations, history etc. to mostly keep myself out of trouble. Sometimes I depend on my more expert friends. In most cases it doesn't take a Kenyon or a Still to detect a fake.

Over the years I have gotten too many calls from closet Luger collectors that have discovered their rare-mint gems are fakes or reblues. Often the damage is not detected until they attempt to sell their prizes and find that honest dealers who know what they are looking at won't buy them. If the real world is ignored, beginning collectors are easy victims of dishonest dealers and the problem keeps accumulating in their collections.
Jan C. Still

Big Norm · 06-07-2002, 04:31 AM

I have a real hard time with faked Lugers. The subject makes my blood boil. On the last forum there was a discussion about 1904 navies and I learned a lot about them as a result. I ended up not purchasing one and saved myself a lot of money. This money was later used to buy a 1900 DWM Borchardt that I am very happy with. So I totally agree with Jan on the subject of faked Lugers.
On refinished Lugers, I don't know. I had some Kreighoffs that I took to some experts and friends and they could not tell me whether or not they were restored. I also had a 1916 navy that I had expertly restored. This gun was destined for the scrape heap but I feel that I saved a bit of history and a fine gun. As long as no metal has been altered, like adding proof marks or unit marks, or the serial numbers altered, then I don't feel that the buyer has been cheated. But I agree that this is drawing a fine line.
I don't know just what Jan means by boosting. The last issue of AutoMag they discussed refinishing and restoring as though they were separate terms. I don't know what the difference is.
Big Norm

Luke · 06-07-2002, 06:52 AM

As a relatively new collector, I like the idea, Mr. Still. [img]smile.gif[/img]

All of the Luger books I have read, especially the Still and Kenyon books, are very helpful to newcomers; but they don't address this subject.

Everything I have learned about fakes, boosted Lugers, rebluing, etc. came from Luger Forum discussions and personal contact with members of the Forum over the last year. This support has saved me from expensive mistakes at least twice in the last few months.

Creating an area where these subjects can be objectively discussed would be helpful. If the issues are handled without names and personalities, we can all learn a lot. I, personally, don't need to know WHO did it or WHO sold it. I want to know what the problem is, how it was done, and how to detect it.

Thor · 06-07-2002, 08:15 AM

I think we must be very very careful to keep names of sellers and serial numbers of specific guns out of the public discussions or we will surely end up with hottly debated fighting that could shut the forum down again. We must not go down the road that shut the forum down before. I think polite education is a good thing and can be done if that is the intent of the poster. I think the intentions are good but these types of discussions can EASILY explode into something that was not orginally intended. I think we must be very careful with this topic. It is important for Luger buyers to be informed buyers.

wterrell · 06-07-2002, 08:58 AM

<img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />
A forum for the discussion of refinished, boosted, and faked Lugers is very important. The knowledge to distinguish between a factory original and an altered or restored Luger is very useful for every collector.

It will be very difficult to avoid disagreement of what should be collectable and what should be a shooter. Our points of view are determined by the variables that caused us to become interested in Lugers originally, modified by time, knowledge, and money.

A forum cannot affect time or money, but association and discussions with men who have spent decades studying the Luger will add substantially to our knowledge.

Moderators will keep us civil.

Regards,
wes <img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[nono]" />

John Sabato · 06-07-2002, 09:42 AM

Thor & Wes,

Very astute comments indeed...

[img]smile.gif[/img]

Orv Reichert · 06-07-2002, 09:43 AM

I think it is important to report and fully describe these 'juiced' guns, including serial numbers.

In the P38 world, I have maintained a database for 25 years. I now have more than 19,000 entries and can, often, report that I have seen or had a gun reported BEFORE it acquired that rare mark!
EXAMPLE

In 1983, I examined an AC41 on a dealers table at the Sacramento Show. A year later, the same dealer had the same gun on display but now it was the "rare SA marked P38...Brandenburg-Berlin..the only example known!" When 'burned' in AUTOMAG, the dealer told me "Gee....I sold it last year and when I bought it this month, I did not know it was the same gun!" [yeah?...right!!]

The same dealer had previously sold a Mauser banner P08 with the identical markings!

The point of all this is...let us help each other? When MONEY is involved...ethics go right out the window!

Orv

<img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[nono]" />

Lugerlvr · 06-07-2002, 12:36 PM

I think everyone knows where I stand on this subject. It would be very helpfull to new collectors, providing such rudementary facts as "on an Imperial Luger, The inside of the chamber should not be blued" The look that a particular Luger's finnish should have; Rust, Dip, Salt, etc and from which period a particular finnish comes from. We need to be carefull, as Jan noted that we don't get into personalities in this section, but if a member has had a negative experience with a particular dealer, it should be able to be brought up. Chances are very good that it has happened to others. Especially in the event that the dealer is PURPOSELY doing this, it really has to be mentioned. Great example is Mitchel's Mausers, offering New Unissued P38's in wood boxes for $2000.00. Just a warning that the same guns can be bought for $389.00. No flames, just an honest warning, w/ the facts. The forum members can then make up their own minds. Just a couple of thoughts.

Der Waffen Sammler <img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" /> [img]mad.gif[/img] <img src="graemlins/icon501.gif" border="0" alt="[icon501]" /> <img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" />

Edward Tinker · 06-07-2002, 01:02 PM

I would think that as long as facts are stated, NONE of these, "my friend had this Luger that he bought from Tinker's Luger Corral and it was all ate up, with rust and mites on it".

If Tim says, I bought this rusted up piece of junk and Tinker's Luger Corral stated it was in good shape, then I don't see a problem with this.

FACTS and opinions dealing with the specific issue is fine, but rants and ravings of an off base subject should not be acceptable, and ought to be killed on the spot, IMO.

Frank · 06-07-2002, 01:08 PM

Ed, couldn't agree with you more!! Nice post!!

Hugh · 06-07-2002, 01:42 PM

Hey, Ed,

Is that the kind of guns Tinkers Luger Corral sells? <img src="graemlins/icon107.gif" border="0" alt="[icon107]" />

Edward Tinker · 06-07-2002, 01:47 PM

[img]mad.gif[/img] for goodness sakes Hugh, why would I sell the nice ones?

[img]biggrin.gif[/img] [img]biggrin.gif[/img] [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

Johnny Peppers · 06-07-2002, 07:44 PM

Some of the older members of NAPCA may remember a discussion of a Norweigian M/1914 shown in AutoMag with waffenampts. The pistol was right at the end of the cutoff for waffenampt pistols, but it just so happened that the previous owner of the pistol was also a NAPCA member and by the serial number knew the pistol had previously belonged to him. The present owner absolutely stated that the pistol was waffenampt when he bought it, and the original owner absolutely stated that the pistol did not have waffenampts when he owned it. It is very easy to believe the owner who said it was not waffenampt, so this pistol by serial number became a marked commodity. Who is to blame? Who knows; but at least there is public data on this pistol with the fake markings.

Herb · 06-07-2002, 08:43 PM

Just looked at E-Bay. There is an early original nickle plated wood bottom magazine that is unnumbered, current bid is $120, way too much for such an item. I'll betcha in a few days there will be another 'all matching including the magazine' up for sale somewhere. Would be interesting to see who gets it.

06-06-2002, 05:29 PM	#1
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	Faked, refinished and boosted Lugers. How about a section dealing with faked, refinished, and boosted Lugers. Such Lugers are sold as correct at most gun shows, auctions, and dealers lists. They pose a particular problem for the new collector who often finds that he was burned well after the fact. If we deal with the details of the particular Luger under consideration and not the personalities of the owner or seller it should prove very helpful. Jan C.Still

06-06-2002, 06:59 PM	#3
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Jan, I think you have a good idea there. My concern is that there are so many, possibly thousands of variations, that this would be a real nightmare. My research has led me to believe that everytime a Luger went back for repair of something, or perhaps just an adjustment, someone added an inspection stamp or other mark. This is probably why all original, never repaired or adjusted Lugers have less inspection or 'proof' stamps than those that had several repairs. I have no proof of this but I suspect that even the unit armorers used stamps when parts were replaced. What are your thoughts on this? __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

06-06-2002, 07:27 PM	#4
Dan Clemons User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Grants Pass, OR Posts: 184 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi Jan: I am glad you brought this subject up. I am just coming up to speed on this subject. Sharing what others look for is a great idea. The last three Lugers that I looked at were returned. It never hurts to have a sharp eye and an uninterested friend look at your purchase. Each Luger has its own story. We just need to know where and what to look for is all. Why not share those ideas here? Dan __________________ Loving Lugers

06-07-2002, 06:52 AM	#9
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	As a relatively new collector, I like the idea, Mr. Still. [img]smile.gif[/img] All of the Luger books I have read, especially the Still and Kenyon books, are very helpful to newcomers; but they don't address this subject. Everything I have learned about fakes, boosted Lugers, rebluing, etc. came from Luger Forum discussions and personal contact with members of the Forum over the last year. This support has saved me from expensive mistakes at least twice in the last few months. Creating an area where these subjects can be objectively discussed would be helpful. If the issues are handled without names and personalities, we can all learn a lot. I, personally, don't need to know WHO did it or WHO sold it. I want to know what the problem is, how it was done, and how to detect it. __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

06-07-2002, 08:15 AM	#10
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	I think we must be very very careful to keep names of sellers and serial numbers of specific guns out of the public discussions or we will surely end up with hottly debated fighting that could shut the forum down again. We must not go down the road that shut the forum down before. I think polite education is a good thing and can be done if that is the intent of the poster. I think the intentions are good but these types of discussions can EASILY explode into something that was not orginally intended. I think we must be very careful with this topic. It is important for Luger buyers to be informed buyers. __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

06-06-2002, 05:32 PM	#2
Greg User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southern U.S. Posts: 181 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I think that with those parameters, it could be a very valuable section!!!

06-06-2002, 10:08 PM	#5
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 471 Thanked 513 Times in 127 Posts	Hi Jan and all..! I thought I'd post my comments back into the threads themselves - as I just touched on this in the "Unit Markings thread: Unit Marking Thread but figured I should post my replies into each thread - to keep that thread open to something further thoughts/comments. In short - I like the idea - but perhaps this is more specific as to how a fake is spotted determined within particuliar variations themselves - unlike a shooters/reloading forum - which spans several "eras" and interests? That being said - this Forum is still new - so I really appreciate the comments and suggestions for improvements - and invite your thoughts back! Best to all..!

06-06-2002, 11:07 PM	#6
TC Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: south carolina Posts: 30 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	sorry, but unless jan or kenyon or some other luger expert can inspect every luger questioned on this new board then there bound to be problems simply because we are all human, we make mistakes and often speak or type without thinking. a big can of worms if you ask me. <img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[nono]" />

06-07-2002, 02:09 AM	#7
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	TC I don't consider myself an expert at detecting fakes and refinishes, but I know enough about finishes, markings, variations, history etc. to mostly keep myself out of trouble. Sometimes I depend on my more expert friends. In most cases it doesn't take a Kenyon or a Still to detect a fake. Over the years I have gotten too many calls from closet Luger collectors that have discovered their rare-mint gems are fakes or reblues. Often the damage is not detected until they attempt to sell their prizes and find that honest dealers who know what they are looking at won't buy them. If the real world is ignored, beginning collectors are easy victims of dishonest dealers and the problem keeps accumulating in their collections. Jan C. Still

06-07-2002, 04:31 AM	#8
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	I have a real hard time with faked Lugers. The subject makes my blood boil. On the last forum there was a discussion about 1904 navies and I learned a lot about them as a result. I ended up not purchasing one and saved myself a lot of money. This money was later used to buy a 1900 DWM Borchardt that I am very happy with. So I totally agree with Jan on the subject of faked Lugers. On refinished Lugers, I don't know. I had some Kreighoffs that I took to some experts and friends and they could not tell me whether or not they were restored. I also had a 1916 navy that I had expertly restored. This gun was destined for the scrape heap but I feel that I saved a bit of history and a fine gun. As long as no metal has been altered, like adding proof marks or unit marks, or the serial numbers altered, then I don't feel that the buyer has been cheated. But I agree that this is drawing a fine line. I don't know just what Jan means by boosting. The last issue of AutoMag they discussed refinishing and restoring as though they were separate terms. I don't know what the difference is. Big Norm

06-07-2002, 08:58 AM	#11
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	<img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" /> A forum for the discussion of refinished, boosted, and faked Lugers is very important. The knowledge to distinguish between a factory original and an altered or restored Luger is very useful for every collector. It will be very difficult to avoid disagreement of what should be collectable and what should be a shooter. Our points of view are determined by the variables that caused us to become interested in Lugers originally, modified by time, knowledge, and money. A forum cannot affect time or money, but association and discussions with men who have spent decades studying the Luger will add substantially to our knowledge. Moderators will keep us civil. Regards, wes <img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[nono]" /> __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

06-07-2002, 09:42 AM	#12
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Thor & Wes, Very astute comments indeed... [img]smile.gif[/img] __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

06-07-2002, 09:43 AM	#13
Orv Reichert RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SW Washington State Posts: 339 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I think it is important to report and fully describe these 'juiced' guns, including serial numbers. In the P38 world, I have maintained a database for 25 years. I now have more than 19,000 entries and can, often, report that I have seen or had a gun reported BEFORE it acquired that rare mark! EXAMPLE In 1983, I examined an AC41 on a dealers table at the Sacramento Show. A year later, the same dealer had the same gun on display but now it was the "rare SA marked P38...Brandenburg-Berlin..the only example known!" When 'burned' in AUTOMAG, the dealer told me "Gee....I sold it last year and when I bought it this month, I did not know it was the same gun!" [yeah?...right!!] The same dealer had previously sold a Mauser banner P08 with the identical markings! The point of all this is...let us help each other? When MONEY is involved...ethics go right out the window! Orv <img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[nono]" /> __________________ ORVEL L. "ORV" REICHERT

06-07-2002, 12:36 PM	#14
Lugerlvr Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 31 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I think everyone knows where I stand on this subject. It would be very helpfull to new collectors, providing such rudementary facts as "on an Imperial Luger, The inside of the chamber should not be blued" The look that a particular Luger's finnish should have; Rust, Dip, Salt, etc and from which period a particular finnish comes from. We need to be carefull, as Jan noted that we don't get into personalities in this section, but if a member has had a negative experience with a particular dealer, it should be able to be brought up. Chances are very good that it has happened to others. Especially in the event that the dealer is PURPOSELY doing this, it really has to be mentioned. Great example is Mitchel's Mausers, offering New Unissued P38's in wood boxes for $2000.00. Just a warning that the same guns can be bought for $389.00. No flames, just an honest warning, w/ the facts. The forum members can then make up their own minds. Just a couple of thoughts. Der Waffen Sammler <img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" /> [img]mad.gif[/img] <img src="graemlins/icon501.gif" border="0" alt="[icon501]" /> <img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" />

06-07-2002, 01:02 PM	#15
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	I would think that as long as facts are stated, NONE of these, "my friend had this Luger that he bought from Tinker's Luger Corral and it was all ate up, with rust and mites on it". If Tim says, I bought this rusted up piece of junk and Tinker's Luger Corral stated it was in good shape, then I don't see a problem with this. FACTS and opinions dealing with the specific issue is fine, but rants and ravings of an off base subject should not be acceptable, and ought to be killed on the spot, IMO. __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

06-07-2002, 01:08 PM	#16
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	Ed, couldn't agree with you more!! Nice post!!

06-07-2002, 01:42 PM	#17
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 165 Times in 64 Posts	Hey, Ed, Is that the kind of guns Tinkers Luger Corral sells? <img src="graemlins/icon107.gif" border="0" alt="[icon107]" /> __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*

06-07-2002, 01:47 PM	#18
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	[img]mad.gif[/img] for goodness sakes Hugh, why would I sell the nice ones? [img]biggrin.gif[/img] [img]biggrin.gif[/img] [img]biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

06-07-2002, 07:44 PM	#19
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Some of the older members of NAPCA may remember a discussion of a Norweigian M/1914 shown in AutoMag with waffenampts. The pistol was right at the end of the cutoff for waffenampt pistols, but it just so happened that the previous owner of the pistol was also a NAPCA member and by the serial number knew the pistol had previously belonged to him. The present owner absolutely stated that the pistol was waffenampt when he bought it, and the original owner absolutely stated that the pistol did not have waffenampts when he owned it. It is very easy to believe the owner who said it was not waffenampt, so this pistol by serial number became a marked commodity. Who is to blame? Who knows; but at least there is public data on this pistol with the fake markings.

06-07-2002, 08:43 PM	#20
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Just looked at E-Bay. There is an early original nickle plated wood bottom magazine that is unnumbered, current bid is $120, way too much for such an item. I'll betcha in a few days there will be another 'all matching including the magazine' up for sale somewhere. Would be interesting to see who gets it. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull