legend of the Black Widow

03-28-2002, 09:43 PM

Are they really something dark and special or are they the result of brilliant 1960s firearms marketing ? What makes a widow a widow ?

Johnny Peppers · 03-28-2002, 10:06 PM

Strictly a brilliant bit of marketing on a Luger that was not selling very well.

Thor · 03-28-2002, 10:18 PM

It really worked well didnt it! Thor

Dok · 03-29-2002, 01:23 PM

It needs to be a 42, S/42 or byf, have black grips and black plastic magazine bottom. As you can see that's hardly a variation, but it's not about variation... it's about MYSTIQUE!

Dok

03-29-2002, 04:42 PM

I see the answer to your question as more complicated. I personally believe that only the mid-41 and 42 byf production with the black grips qualify as "Black Widows". I have no duobt that as claimed the term was coined by a well known Luger dealer (we all know who) however it may have not originated with him....who knows if GI's and or Germans used this term to some extent. More importantly, there is a connection between 41 and 42 dated Lugers and the W-SS. This has nothing to do with the black grips per say, they just happened to be fitted to about 20% of these Lugers (according to Still). The SS got a high percentage of the 41 and 42 production because the Army was trying to hold on to all P.38 production at that point in the war.

Also consider the eye appeal, the fact that these were the last produced Lugers by Mauser (in quantity by any maker)and that 20% of that 2 year production is about the same as a G date, in other words not real common. I would say a bit of marketing and a lot of history and sharp looks.

Luke · 03-29-2002, 05:06 PM

SOMEONE PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I AM MISTAKEN, but I believe that we have established on this Forum several times that no black grips were installed on Lugers until the "U" block of the 1941 byf model.

If this is true, then the only Lugers which could be legitimate "Black Widows" are:

1941-byf "U" block and later, and

1942-byf, all blocks.

I suppose that armorers could have installed the black Bakelite grips on earlier Lugers during rework operations.

03-29-2002, 07:10 PM

Thanks guys ! I don't post here much (only gots one P.08 ) but I do scan the threads pretty often and it's always interesting. When ya'll gonna add a Mauser forum ?

Thor · 03-29-2002, 07:24 PM

Jan Still Reports 20% on 41/42s had Black Grips whichis the same percentage that he reports on 41 byfs, and 2% on 1940 42 codes. IF that is true I would think the 41/42s were as issued while the 1940 probably would be replacements. Some people say Still is wrong! He did do SOME research. I believe him. Thor

Marvin · 03-29-2002, 08:46 PM

I have to back Thor on this too! I do believe that Jan Still has done a LOT of research to make the statements he has made concerning when the black plastic grips were used. I have been in NAPCA for about 7 years now and I have never seen anyone take an opinion that differs from Still's. If it is a fact that the "u" block was the beginning, why is there no other source that can quantify this statement? Has Gortz, Kornmeyer, Kenyon, Walter, Jones, Etc made this statement? I go with the folks that have done the research!

Having been involved with manufacturing in one form or another for 35 years, and I can state that very few changes are made in a certain set time frame unless engineering deems there is a problem and an immediate change is necessary. Why would a plant like Mauser get grips and wait until a certain suffix block to begin using them. The statement by Still that the were used on 2% of the 1940, and 20% of the 1941 make sense since they do seem to be a limited production item.

It is my OPINION, that the plastic grips were used to supplement the wood grips, in production, when the wood grips were not available. So, if any of you have a Luger with plastic grips and the pistol is before the "u" block, made in 1940 or 1941, they could be original to the pistol. But, as a matter of fact, there is NO Luger that can claim to have the original set which was installed at the factory unless the GI, or other authority got it from the factory. Many of these plastic grips were used as replacements.

Marvin

03-29-2002, 10:25 PM

Luke, I think we are violently agreeing! Mid -41 would be around the U block. I meant to say mid-41 thru end of 42 production rather than mid-41 and 42....This is at least how I define the "Black Widow" category.Having said that, I don't believe that we "established" this on the board, as it would take very solid factory documentation in my mind to make this absolute. I agree that it is possible for the black grips to have been gradually introduced earlier, even in 1940.

Lonnie Zimmerman · 03-29-2002, 11:53 PM

Bill M; asked me this question. why are there so many near mint late war Mauser"s with BW grips; and FEW mediocre mauser"s with them? Have they been moved from mediocre guns to near mint guns for THE MONEY?? Sounds right to me.

Lonnie

Luke · 03-30-2002, 10:59 AM

03-30-2002, 11:17 AM

In Still's Third Reich Lugers on page 85, there is a '41 BFY with black grips and black bottomed magazine shown.. Serial number is stated as # 4801.

This luger appears to be a "Black Widow" and is not in the U-block or there after...

Are you guys saying it is not a "Black Widow" ? It is/was in the Donald I. Andrews collection.

Luke · 03-30-2002, 11:29 AM

Don't know what it means, but the information under that picture says,

" . . . 41-byf, s.n. 4801 with both E/135 and E/655 acceptance stamps on its right receiver. The inspector using the E/135 acceptance stamp came into office in LATE 1941."

(Caps mine)

DISCLAIMER. I don't pretend to know the answer to this question about when "Black Widows" were first manufactured, but it sure is an interesting topic.

Luke

03-30-2002, 12:06 PM

Bill M. sent me an e-mail and cleared this up for me.

Based on Still's (TRL) on page 66, the 2-digit '41 bfy coded lugers ran from serials 3300n to 9950a. The gun on page 85 without the sufffix came after the XXXXz but before the XXXXa guns. Thus the page 85 gun is still after the u-block...and after the time when the E/135 inspector came on board, serials 1000-9950a (i.e. Subvariation 2). Gun on page 85 has both E/655 and E/135 stamps so there appears to have been some overlap of inspections...

Thanks for the help. Bill M. !!!

03-30-2002, 10:54 PM

Concur. There is no way that engineering is going to change a part unless they are sure that it is going to stand up as a replacement. It would only make sense that some weapons were fitted with the BW type grips over a period of time to see how they would stand up to usuage. To say that they could oniy be on a weapon after a certain periods of time does not allow for the necessary testing and field trials.

My thoughts after having worked in a manufacturing enviroment and around a bunch of research and testing engineers. We always field tested new items with the help of organizations that would be using our materials.

03-28-2002, 09:43 PM	#1
gewehr guy Guest Posts: n/a	legend of the Black Widow Are they really something dark and special or are they the result of brilliant 1960s firearms marketing ? What makes a widow a widow ?

03-28-2002, 10:06 PM	#2
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: legend of the Black Widow Strictly a brilliant bit of marketing on a Luger that was not selling very well.

03-28-2002, 10:18 PM	#3
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Re: legend of the Black Widow It really worked well didnt it! Thor

03-29-2002, 01:23 PM	#4
Dok RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Bermuda (Eat Your Heart Out) Posts: 1,626 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	What makes a Black Widow... It needs to be a 42, S/42 or byf, have black grips and black plastic magazine bottom. As you can see that's hardly a variation, but it's not about variation... it's about MYSTIQUE! Dok

03-29-2002, 04:42 PM	#5
BCC Guest Posts: n/a	Re: What makes a Black Widow... I see the answer to your question as more complicated. I personally believe that only the mid-41 and 42 byf production with the black grips qualify as "Black Widows". I have no duobt that as claimed the term was coined by a well known Luger dealer (we all know who) however it may have not originated with him....who knows if GI's and or Germans used this term to some extent. More importantly, there is a connection between 41 and 42 dated Lugers and the W-SS. This has nothing to do with the black grips per say, they just happened to be fitted to about 20% of these Lugers (according to Still). The SS got a high percentage of the 41 and 42 production because the Army was trying to hold on to all P.38 production at that point in the war. Also consider the eye appeal, the fact that these were the last produced Lugers by Mauser (in quantity by any maker)and that 20% of that 2 year production is about the same as a G date, in other words not real common. I would say a bit of marketing and a lot of history and sharp looks.

03-29-2002, 05:06 PM	#6
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	Re: What makes a Black Widow... SOMEONE PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I AM MISTAKEN, but I believe that we have established on this Forum several times that no black grips were installed on Lugers until the "U" block of the 1941 byf model. If this is true, then the only Lugers which could be legitimate "Black Widows" are: 1941-byf "U" block and later, and 1942-byf, all blocks. I suppose that armorers could have installed the black Bakelite grips on earlier Lugers during rework operations.

03-29-2002, 07:10 PM	#7
gewehr guy Guest Posts: n/a	Re: What makes a Black Widow... Thanks guys ! I don't post here much (only gots one P.08 ) but I do scan the threads pretty often and it's always interesting. When ya'll gonna add a Mauser forum ?

03-29-2002, 07:24 PM	#8
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Re: What makes a Black Widow... Jan Still Reports 20% on 41/42s had Black Grips whichis the same percentage that he reports on 41 byfs, and 2% on 1940 42 codes. IF that is true I would think the 41/42s were as issued while the 1940 probably would be replacements. Some people say Still is wrong! He did do SOME research. I believe him. Thor

03-29-2002, 08:46 PM	#9
Marvin User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Upstate S.C. Posts: 1,132 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: What makes a Black Widow... I have to back Thor on this too! I do believe that Jan Still has done a LOT of research to make the statements he has made concerning when the black plastic grips were used. I have been in NAPCA for about 7 years now and I have never seen anyone take an opinion that differs from Still's. If it is a fact that the "u" block was the beginning, why is there no other source that can quantify this statement? Has Gortz, Kornmeyer, Kenyon, Walter, Jones, Etc made this statement? I go with the folks that have done the research! Having been involved with manufacturing in one form or another for 35 years, and I can state that very few changes are made in a certain set time frame unless engineering deems there is a problem and an immediate change is necessary. Why would a plant like Mauser get grips and wait until a certain suffix block to begin using them. The statement by Still that the were used on 2% of the 1940, and 20% of the 1941 make sense since they do seem to be a limited production item. It is my OPINION, that the plastic grips were used to supplement the wood grips, in production, when the wood grips were not available. So, if any of you have a Luger with plastic grips and the pistol is before the "u" block, made in 1940 or 1941, they could be original to the pistol. But, as a matter of fact, there is NO Luger that can claim to have the original set which was installed at the factory unless the GI, or other authority got it from the factory. Many of these plastic grips were used as replacements. Marvin

03-29-2002, 10:25 PM	#10
BCC Guest Posts: n/a	Re: What makes a Black Widow... Luke, I think we are violently agreeing! Mid -41 would be around the U block. I meant to say mid-41 thru end of 42 production rather than mid-41 and 42....This is at least how I define the "Black Widow" category.Having said that, I don't believe that we "established" this on the board, as it would take very solid factory documentation in my mind to make this absolute. I agree that it is possible for the black grips to have been gradually introduced earlier, even in 1940.

03-29-2002, 11:53 PM	#11
Lonnie Zimmerman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 523 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: What makes a Black Widow... Bill M; asked me this question. why are there so many near mint late war Mauser"s with BW grips; and FEW mediocre mauser"s with them? Have they been moved from mediocre guns to near mint guns for THE MONEY?? Sounds right to me. Lonnie

03-30-2002, 10:59 AM	#12
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	BCC, Thanks. I was beginning to feel really bad.

03-30-2002, 11:17 AM	#13
Wm. "Pete" Ebbink Guest Posts: n/a	Still's (T.R.L.) Page 85 BW...? In Still's Third Reich Lugers on page 85, there is a '41 BFY with black grips and black bottomed magazine shown.. Serial number is stated as # 4801. This luger appears to be a "Black Widow" and is not in the U-block or there after... Are you guys saying it is not a "Black Widow" ? It is/was in the Donald I. Andrews collection.

03-30-2002, 11:29 AM	#14
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	Re: Still's (T.R.L.) Page 85 BW...? Don't know what it means, but the information under that picture says, " . . . 41-byf, s.n. 4801 with both E/135 and E/655 acceptance stamps on its right receiver. The inspector using the E/135 acceptance stamp came into office in LATE 1941." (Caps mine) DISCLAIMER. I don't pretend to know the answer to this question about when "Black Widows" were first manufactured, but it sure is an interesting topic. Luke

03-30-2002, 12:06 PM	#15
Wm. "Pete" Ebbink Guest Posts: n/a	Bill M. Info... Bill M. sent me an e-mail and cleared this up for me. Based on Still's (TRL) on page 66, the 2-digit '41 bfy coded lugers ran from serials 3300n to 9950a. The gun on page 85 without the sufffix came after the XXXXz but before the XXXXa guns. Thus the page 85 gun is still after the u-block...and after the time when the E/135 inspector came on board, serials 1000-9950a (i.e. Subvariation 2). Gun on page 85 has both E/655 and E/135 stamps so there appears to have been some overlap of inspections... Thanks for the help. Bill M. !!!

03-30-2002, 10:54 PM	#16
Tracy Guest Posts: n/a	Re: What makes a Black Widow... Concur. There is no way that engineering is going to change a part unless they are sure that it is going to stand up as a replacement. It would only make sense that some weapons were fitted with the BW type grips over a period of time to see how they would stand up to usuage. To say that they could oniy be on a weapon after a certain periods of time does not allow for the necessary testing and field trials. My thoughts after having worked in a manufacturing enviroment and around a bunch of research and testing engineers. We always field tested new items with the help of organizations that would be using our materials.