High Quality sight adj. tool... any interest?

JR. · 10-11-2003, 06:55 PM

I have always had thoughts of reproducing a high quality sight adj. tool.... and, over the years, I have conspired with several different people to make this happen. But, the difficulty & cost in machining, and the low demand for the item... makes the whole equasion kind of ify, and I have never been able to pursue it further..... My question to the membership, is: Would you pay up to $500.00 for an exact reproduction of a sight adj. tool?, (completely inclosed Swiss/German type tool) made completely from tool steel, heat treated and ground, blued and indexed (marked divisions), This is just in the research stage.... I don't think there is enough demand to make it happen... but I would like to know what the forum members think just the same!
Thanks to all! till....later...GT

Ron Wood · 10-11-2003, 09:40 PM

Excitement abounded with the prospect of your quality of workmanship applied to a sight adjustment tool, but hesitated to respond because of fiscal restraints. BUT, when you said "indexed", I lost all control and have to express my total support of such an endeavor. Go for it my friend...I'll hock one of the cats or something.

Lugerdoc · 10-11-2003, 11:26 PM

GT, I've seen some exc repros coming out of Germany, but not sure of the cost. I'll see what I can find out. You might want to consider a less expensive project, such as a stronger fine tune adjusting tool for the LPO8 rear sights. I find that my ground down Stanley screw driver works better than most copies of the original. TH

JR. · 10-12-2003, 10:21 AM

Hi Rick! A picture is worth a 1000 words, and I'll have one on the forum later today, so we'll all be on the same page as to the tool I'm contemplating reproducing... but for now, let me add this info.... The rotating part of the tool (an external sleeve) has 7 index marks around its 360 degree diameter, these marks line up with an indexing mark on the tool body... I don't know how many milimeters of lateral sight movement is indicated by each mark, but it is at least a reference so you can make controlled sight adjustment... I believe the tool to be Swiss... and they are increadibly well made... But, I have a machinist partner that makes things increadibly well! When I say they, I have three tools, a standard P.08 model, a M marked Navy model and a very unique model for the model 1900 & 1906 .30 cal. we plan to make all three if the demand warrents production... And Ron, If & when, you will be inline for tool # 1!! I'll get a picture of it online as soon as I can get my son up out of bed! Thanks Guys! Till...later...GT

<img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" />

JR. · 10-12-2003, 10:55 AM

JR. · 10-12-2003, 11:33 AM

The first tool is the navy model, the second is for a 1900 .30 cal and the third picture shows the index marks... a nice feature of these tools is that the internal pin that pushes the sight does not turn, so it doesn't scuff the blue finish.
The units we would produce would look exactly as pictured, only new! till...later...GT

lugerholsterrepair · 10-12-2003, 11:43 AM

GT, A noble project to be sure. I had a pretty good machinest work up several of these for me and I learned a few things similar to your magazine mandrel project.

One sight adjuster will not fit all pistols. WW1 is different than Mauser etc. Barell diameters differ and Swiss and Artillery are all somewhat different. There are enough differences that there is no real compromise. A guy would have to think that through some.....

This fellow was machining mine for quite a bit less than $500.00 and I had planned to sell them for $125.00 and did sell two or three. I had some problems with the heat treatment of the pusher rod so had to replace several of those before I sold them.

I think most of the membership would want one of these for shooting if nothing else and the collector aspect is a second consideration. Of course, one made to your specs and quality would be very desirable but not priced for the shooter.

$500.00 would probably get you pretty close to an original so if it were possible to get it down a bit you would sell more. I know you are not looking at quantity production, only a few but maybe you could grade them out so you have one indexed and one that is not, but a little less expensive. I know on the one I have the index is not absolutely necessary to get a proper sight adjustment. The index is certainly a nifty feature though and lends some quality to the tool.

If I were using one of these I find the T handle is preferable to the L handle like the one shown. Lets you grasp the adjuster knob a little more firmly to make those fine movements.

There are a number of good designs out there so with a little research a good one could be chosen.

Heat treatment is very important, especially on the push rod that contacts the sight base. Mild steel will spall if not heat treated properly.

Good luck my Friend, I would dearly love to see whatever you come up with and if the price is within my meager budget I will be a willing customer. I would love to have a high quality sight adjuster.

Ron, couldn't you think of anything else to raise some money besides hocking one of your Friends?!

Kittie fan, Jerry Burney

JR. · 10-12-2003, 12:05 PM

Hi Jerry! Yes, you are correct on all counts! There will be some growing pains to be sure... and I'll definitly consider all the of the parameters... One of the main reasons for the high cost, is the use of tool steel and heat treat through-out the total tool construction.. Knowing my machinist as I do, the whole tool, and every part, will be ground to within a tenth or two.. That is the only way he works! He has no less quality part in him.... when I spec parts to him, and I say it can be plus or minus .001" or .002", he says what do you want it to be in tenths of a thousandth, cuz that's what it's going to be! Any of the guys that have purchased our mag. mandrel can attest to that.. they were completely ground.... There might be a .0005" runout, because we didn't flood cool them as we ground them, and they were soft steel, but they are a much closer tolerance then if machined... Some money & time could be saved if the graduations were omitted, but if we set up to do one, we might as well do them all.... But, it is still in the research stage, and the fact that we have samples at hand, will give us a jump start on accuracy... I definitly appreciate your input Jerry, definitly some points to be considered.... till...later...GT

lugerholsterrepair · 10-12-2003, 04:40 PM

GT, I will be on the lookout for whatever you come up with....It's bound to be good. You should make good use of this fellow while you can..Good luck, Jerry Burney

JR. · 10-13-2003, 05:48 PM

More questions??? I had hoped for a few more opinions on value, but I appreciate the input of the members who posted! We are very skeptical as to wheather or not we could break even on this deal, but that has never ever stopped me before!!.... another BIG question...if you had a choice, (C,mon members) which tool do you think you would prefer, the 1900 model, the standard P.08 model, or the Navy model??? I am planning on 12 units, but in order to keep overhead down, we are starting with just one variation....So, speak up now, or forever hold....well, you know what I mean.. till...later.....GT

<img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" />

Ron Wood · 10-13-2003, 09:50 PM

I think I will be in the minority, but given my druthers, I would opt for the 1900/1906 slim barrel tool with a T-handle as Jerry suggested. Seems like that is the "most proper" persuasion of such a precision tool. It just fits in with my love of the early guns. Realistically, a standard P.08 will probably have the widest appeal. Us early Luger and Navy aficionados just don't make up the bulk of collectors. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

Ron Wood · 10-14-2003, 03:23 AM

Perhaps something like this? (This photo is a fake, I cobbled it up from photo #2)

10-11-2003, 06:55 PM	#1
JR. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Flagstaff, AZ Posts: 31 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	High Quality sight adj. tool... any interest? I have always had thoughts of reproducing a high quality sight adj. tool.... and, over the years, I have conspired with several different people to make this happen. But, the difficulty & cost in machining, and the low demand for the item... makes the whole equasion kind of ify, and I have never been able to pursue it further..... My question to the membership, is: Would you pay up to $500.00 for an exact reproduction of a sight adj. tool?, (completely inclosed Swiss/German type tool) made completely from tool steel, heat treated and ground, blued and indexed (marked divisions), This is just in the research stage.... I don't think there is enough demand to make it happen... but I would like to know what the forum members think just the same! Thanks to all! till....later...GT

10-11-2003, 11:26 PM	#3
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	GT, I've seen some exc repros coming out of Germany, but not sure of the cost. I'll see what I can find out. You might want to consider a less expensive project, such as a stronger fine tune adjusting tool for the LPO8 rear sights. I find that my ground down Stanley screw driver works better than most copies of the original. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

10-12-2003, 11:43 AM	#7
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,771 Thanks: 4,921 Thanked 3,123 Times in 1,434 Posts	GT, A noble project to be sure. I had a pretty good machinest work up several of these for me and I learned a few things similar to your magazine mandrel project. One sight adjuster will not fit all pistols. WW1 is different than Mauser etc. Barell diameters differ and Swiss and Artillery are all somewhat different. There are enough differences that there is no real compromise. A guy would have to think that through some..... This fellow was machining mine for quite a bit less than $500.00 and I had planned to sell them for $125.00 and did sell two or three. I had some problems with the heat treatment of the pusher rod so had to replace several of those before I sold them. I think most of the membership would want one of these for shooting if nothing else and the collector aspect is a second consideration. Of course, one made to your specs and quality would be very desirable but not priced for the shooter. $500.00 would probably get you pretty close to an original so if it were possible to get it down a bit you would sell more. I know you are not looking at quantity production, only a few but maybe you could grade them out so you have one indexed and one that is not, but a little less expensive. I know on the one I have the index is not absolutely necessary to get a proper sight adjustment. The index is certainly a nifty feature though and lends some quality to the tool. If I were using one of these I find the T handle is preferable to the L handle like the one shown. Lets you grasp the adjuster knob a little more firmly to make those fine movements. There are a number of good designs out there so with a little research a good one could be chosen. Heat treatment is very important, especially on the push rod that contacts the sight base. Mild steel will spall if not heat treated properly. Good luck my Friend, I would dearly love to see whatever you come up with and if the price is within my meager budget I will be a willing customer. I would love to have a high quality sight adjuster. Ron, couldn't you think of anything else to raise some money besides hocking one of your Friends?! Kittie fan, Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

10-12-2003, 04:40 PM	#9
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,771 Thanks: 4,921 Thanked 3,123 Times in 1,434 Posts	GT, I will be on the lookout for whatever you come up with....It's bound to be good. You should make good use of this fellow while you can..Good luck, Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

10-13-2003, 09:50 PM	#11
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,017 Thanks: 1,089 Thanked 5,162 Times in 1,699 Posts	I think I will be in the minority, but given my druthers, I would opt for the 1900/1906 slim barrel tool with a T-handle as Jerry suggested. Seems like that is the "most proper" persuasion of such a precision tool. It just fits in with my love of the early guns. Realistically, a standard P.08 will probably have the widest appeal. Us early Luger and Navy aficionados just don't make up the bulk of collectors. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" /> __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

10-11-2003, 09:40 PM	#2
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,017 Thanks: 1,089 Thanked 5,162 Times in 1,699 Posts	Excitement abounded with the prospect of your quality of workmanship applied to a sight adjustment tool, but hesitated to respond because of fiscal restraints. BUT, when you said "indexed", I lost all control and have to express my total support of such an endeavor. Go for it my friend...I'll hock one of the cats or something. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

10-12-2003, 10:21 AM	#4
JR. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Flagstaff, AZ Posts: 31 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi Rick! A picture is worth a 1000 words, and I'll have one on the forum later today, so we'll all be on the same page as to the tool I'm contemplating reproducing... but for now, let me add this info.... The rotating part of the tool (an external sleeve) has 7 index marks around its 360 degree diameter, these marks line up with an indexing mark on the tool body... I don't know how many milimeters of lateral sight movement is indicated by each mark, but it is at least a reference so you can make controlled sight adjustment... I believe the tool to be Swiss... and they are increadibly well made... But, I have a machinist partner that makes things increadibly well! When I say they, I have three tools, a standard P.08 model, a M marked Navy model and a very unique model for the model 1900 & 1906 .30 cal. we plan to make all three if the demand warrents production... And Ron, If & when, you will be inline for tool # 1!! I'll get a picture of it online as soon as I can get my son up out of bed! Thanks Guys! Till...later...GT <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" />

10-12-2003, 10:55 AM	#5
JR. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Flagstaff, AZ Posts: 31 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

10-12-2003, 11:33 AM	#6
JR. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Flagstaff, AZ Posts: 31 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The first tool is the navy model, the second is for a 1900 .30 cal and the third picture shows the index marks... a nice feature of these tools is that the internal pin that pushes the sight does not turn, so it doesn't scuff the blue finish. The units we would produce would look exactly as pictured, only new! till...later...GT

10-12-2003, 12:05 PM	#8
JR. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Flagstaff, AZ Posts: 31 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi Jerry! Yes, you are correct on all counts! There will be some growing pains to be sure... and I'll definitly consider all the of the parameters... One of the main reasons for the high cost, is the use of tool steel and heat treat through-out the total tool construction.. Knowing my machinist as I do, the whole tool, and every part, will be ground to within a tenth or two.. That is the only way he works! He has no less quality part in him.... when I spec parts to him, and I say it can be plus or minus .001" or .002", he says what do you want it to be in tenths of a thousandth, cuz that's what it's going to be! Any of the guys that have purchased our mag. mandrel can attest to that.. they were completely ground.... There might be a .0005" runout, because we didn't flood cool them as we ground them, and they were soft steel, but they are a much closer tolerance then if machined... Some money & time could be saved if the graduations were omitted, but if we set up to do one, we might as well do them all.... But, it is still in the research stage, and the fact that we have samples at hand, will give us a jump start on accuracy... I definitly appreciate your input Jerry, definitly some points to be considered.... till...later...GT

10-13-2003, 05:48 PM	#10
JR. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Flagstaff, AZ Posts: 31 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	More questions??? I had hoped for a few more opinions on value, but I appreciate the input of the members who posted! We are very skeptical as to wheather or not we could break even on this deal, but that has never ever stopped me before!!.... another BIG question...if you had a choice, (C,mon members) which tool do you think you would prefer, the 1900 model, the standard P.08 model, or the Navy model??? I am planning on 12 units, but in order to keep overhead down, we are starting with just one variation....So, speak up now, or forever hold....well, you know what I mean.. till...later.....GT <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" />

10-14-2003, 03:23 AM	#12
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,017 Thanks: 1,089 Thanked 5,162 Times in 1,699 Posts	Perhaps something like this? (This photo is a fake, I cobbled it up from photo #2) __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction