What Luger do I have and is this even a P-08?

MrWindUp · 08-14-2011, 07:49 PM

Hello all!! I am new to this forum and hope you all with your infinite wisdom can help me out. I am brand new to Lugers, don't know anything about them, but now own one. I have conflicting stories on it like it's a Commercial P-08 and others say its a fake. I would just like to know what it is so I can then put some value to it for insurance reasons. Again, I'm more concerned with its historical background and what it truly is. Besides the pictures, all numbers match and has a crown over an "N" in several spots. The magazine with a wooded bottom has no markings what so ever. Here is the link to the slide show of all the pictures I have took. Any help would be great!!

http://s90.photobucket.com/albums/k2...view=slideshow

alanint · 08-14-2011, 07:58 PM

Welcome to the board!,
You have a very nice DWM commercial pistol with exceptional original finish. An unmarked magazine is not unusual for these pistols. Please try to post these photos directly to the site as photobucket accounts tend to disappear with time. This way the guys with the data can date your pistol for you.

DavidJayUden · 08-14-2011, 09:43 PM

From what I can see it is matching, orig. finish, and correct. A commercial gun, not issued to the military, but certainly not a "fake". 9mm or .30 cal?
Insure it at $1000.
dju

MFC · 08-14-2011, 10:27 PM

Hi Antony,
Your Luger #81423 is more recently and correctly classified as a 20 DWM commercial. It was formerly called a 1923 commercial. It was made in 1920 for commercial sales and is most likely a 30 Luger or 7.65mm. There were far fewer made and are harder to find than the much more common Alphabet DWM commercials (formerly 1920 commercial) which were made starting in 1921. Personally I would raise the insurance estimate above to $1100 - $1200.

MrWindUp · 08-15-2011, 01:13 AM

I guess I can determine if it's a 9mm or 30 Luger by dropping in a 9X19 and if it chambers then its a 9mm, if it only goes in partially, then it's a 30 right? I don't have any 30 Luger brass but if I recall, the 30 Luger is a bottle-neck cartridge right?

I also read online and in one book that a couple of different manufacturers made the DWM Luger like Mauser and DWM? I am sorry for the dumb questions, I don't know the history on German Firearms. If it's Russian or American Military weapons, I'm all over it but don't know any history on these things. Thank you again for your help guys!!

MrWindUp · 08-15-2011, 01:20 AM

Okay, I just figured I could find out now by pulling it apart and look down the chamber. It's defiantly a 30 Luger or some sort of bottle-necked round. SO 30 Luger it is! Good or Bad now??

Edward Tinker · 08-15-2011, 03:51 AM

Expected for a commercial to be in 30 luger (7.65 mm)

Ron Smith · 08-15-2011, 11:03 AM

"SO 30 Luger it is! Good or Bad now??"

Good in that .30s are very accurate, and fun to shoot. The drawback is that the ammo is a bit on the spendy side if you shoot a lot, and don't reload your own ammunition.

You have a very nice 1920 (aka 1923) Commercial Luger.

mrerick · 08-15-2011, 12:29 PM

Hi Antony,

Welcome to the forum.

While not as highly valued as the military marked Lugers, your commercial Luger is very nice and in it's all matching high condition state would be collectible.

A fair portion of your pistol's value is that it is very close to the state it left the factory in. Some of the parts of your Luger are marked with the last digits of the serial number. Should you break or damage any of these, the value will drop considerably. For that reason, many collectors don't fire their all matching guns.

The crown over N (C/N) proof on your pistol is a commercial "Nitro" proof, performed as require by law in Germany. The thing that is often faked is a crown over "M" proof that was used on pistols destined for the Navy. The real Navy Lugers are rare and highly sought after.

Let's see if I have my history right... (I know that this overview will be corrected by more knowledgeable members...)

There have been a few companies that manufactured Lugers. Georg Luger worked for DWM in Berlin at the time he completed the design, and they manufactured the first ones including yours. Some of their products were sold commercially in and outside Germany. Some were made for the German military.

An Imperial arsenal at Erfurt Germany acquired tooling and manufactured Lugers for the German military in the WW-I timeframe.

After WW-I, DWM was permitted to manufacture commercial pistols for export. For the small permitted German defense army and police departments, the Erfurt tooling was sold to Simson & Co. in Suhl Germany. They reworked Lugers, used the existing stock of DWM parts and assembled a small number of completely new ones.

DWM was eventually part of a conglomerate that included Mauser in Oberndorf Germany. In the early 1930s the DWM tooling was relocated to Mauser and they began to surreptitiously make military Lugers with the coded "K" date in 1934 and "G" date in 1935. In 1936 the Germans threw off the Versailles treaty and began manufacturing military Lugers openly.

The Simson tooling was confiscated by the Nazi government (Simson was owned by a Jewish family) and relocated to the Krieghoff factory in Suhl, Germany in the early 1930s. There, Krieghoff made Lugers for the Luftwaffe. These are highly sought after.

Mauser stopped making Lugers in 1942 as the military contracts shifted to the Walther desighed P-38 pistol. Krieghoff made a small number for a few years after that. All German manufacture of the Luger ended with their collapse at the end of WW-II. I believe a small number were made from parts found at the Mauser and Krieghoff factories and proofed by the occupying French government.

Over the following years, Mauser and others have made commercial Lugers for brief periods of time.

Marc

MrWindUp · 08-15-2011, 02:45 PM

Great background on this thing. I love history and you seemed to sum it up quite well in this area. Thank you so much Marc.

As for ammo, I do reload as I shoot an average of 1200 rounds per month. I have already ordered dies and brass for the 30Luger. I hope to shoot it on rare occasion.

Great info guys! What's the possibility of getting accessories for this gun like the rifle stock and such?

Ron Wood · 08-15-2011, 03:03 PM

I hate to dash your enthusiasm, but it is not legal to attach a stock to this model of short barreled Luger even though it does have a stock lug. Look on the bright side...you just saved a few hundred bucks on acquiring a stock.

ithacaartist · 08-15-2011, 03:26 PM

As suggested above, hardcore collectors rarely, if ever, shoot their collectibles. When one contemplates the subsequent plummeting of their firearm's value, should an original part with a matching number break during use, you might consider ordering up replacement parts which would be most vulnerable, and installing them in your Luger when using it, if you must. Extractor and firing pin are reputed to be most susceptible to damage. Also check to see if the firing pin is grooved, or fluted, on its business end, as this is also a safety issue. It escapes me at the moment whether a 1920 is fluted, but I think maybe not. The grooves are, in part, to allow venting of gas pressure around the pin as opposed to its perfect gas-piston behavior if un-fluted. You may already be familiar with how a pierced primer can affect a gun. Check with Lugerdoc, right here on this forum, or with the various online parts sellers, for these stand-in parts. Also be sure to research the appropriate loads--also here in a forum search.
As you will note, most collectors are quite cranky about shooting Lugers that are as collectible as yours because once damaged, it can never be original again. The more desirable, the crankier we get.
Congratulations on your acquisition!

mrerick · 08-15-2011, 06:48 PM

Antony, as Ron mentions you can't put a stock onto your Luger without changing it's firearm classification in the eyes of the ATF.

You should not possess a stock either since having it and the Luger could constitute "intent"...

A "short barreled rifle" is treated the same way as a machine gun by US law.

If you have an original Artillery luger you can attach an artillery stock.

If you have an original Navy luger, you can attach a navy stock.

Both combinations are specifically exempted by the ATF allowing collectors to own those specific curios.

You can obtain reproduction holsters pretty economically. Finding original holsters made for a commercial Luger may be fairly costly. Original military holsters run in the $200 range and more. Same thing on the loading tools. The reproduction holsters often include a reproduction loading tool.

Marc

jimw · 08-25-2011, 11:57 AM

I have what looks like the same gun but the markings are slightly different. My serial number (#5096) is stamped in the same place, however there is a script small letter "l" (as in Lima) stamped below the serial number. It does have the crown over the N stamped above the serial number. On the back of the toggle is the number "96". "Germany" is stamped on the left side of the barrel.

Can anyone help with the pedigree of this gun?

mrerick · 08-25-2011, 12:54 PM

Jim, You have most likely got a later "DWM Alphabet Commercial" Luger. This would have been made in the early 1920s (My "m" block was probably early 1923) for export to the USA.

Pictures are always helpful. Try opening a new forum thread with them and you're sure to get more information.

Marc

08-14-2011, 07:49 PM	#1
MrWindUp New User Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 4 Thanks: 3 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	What Luger do I have and is this even a P-08? Hello all!! I am new to this forum and hope you all with your infinite wisdom can help me out. I am brand new to Lugers, don't know anything about them, but now own one. I have conflicting stories on it like it's a Commercial P-08 and others say its a fake. I would just like to know what it is so I can then put some value to it for insurance reasons. Again, I'm more concerned with its historical background and what it truly is. Besides the pictures, all numbers match and has a crown over an "N" in several spots. The magazine with a wooded bottom has no markings what so ever. Here is the link to the slide show of all the pictures I have took. Any help would be great!! http://s90.photobucket.com/albums/k2...view=slideshow

08-14-2011, 07:58 PM	#2
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Welcome to the board!, You have a very nice DWM commercial pistol with exceptional original finish. An unmarked magazine is not unusual for these pistols. Please try to post these photos directly to the site as photobucket accounts tend to disappear with time. This way the guys with the data can date your pistol for you. Last edited by alanint; 08-15-2011 at 08:53 AM.

08-14-2011, 10:27 PM	#4
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	Hi Antony, Your Luger #81423 is more recently and correctly classified as a 20 DWM commercial. It was formerly called a 1923 commercial. It was made in 1920 for commercial sales and is most likely a 30 Luger or 7.65mm. There were far fewer made and are harder to find than the much more common Alphabet DWM commercials (formerly 1920 commercial) which were made starting in 1921. Personally I would raise the insurance estimate above to $1100 - $1200. __________________ Mike C.

08-15-2011, 03:51 AM	#7
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,912 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,502 Times in 2,077 Posts	Expected for a commercial to be in 30 luger (7.65 mm) __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-15-2011, 12:29 PM	#9
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,372 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	Hi Antony, Welcome to the forum. While not as highly valued as the military marked Lugers, your commercial Luger is very nice and in it's all matching high condition state would be collectible. A fair portion of your pistol's value is that it is very close to the state it left the factory in. Some of the parts of your Luger are marked with the last digits of the serial number. Should you break or damage any of these, the value will drop considerably. For that reason, many collectors don't fire their all matching guns. The crown over N (C/N) proof on your pistol is a commercial "Nitro" proof, performed as require by law in Germany. The thing that is often faked is a crown over "M" proof that was used on pistols destined for the Navy. The real Navy Lugers are rare and highly sought after. Let's see if I have my history right... (I know that this overview will be corrected by more knowledgeable members...) There have been a few companies that manufactured Lugers. Georg Luger worked for DWM in Berlin at the time he completed the design, and they manufactured the first ones including yours. Some of their products were sold commercially in and outside Germany. Some were made for the German military. An Imperial arsenal at Erfurt Germany acquired tooling and manufactured Lugers for the German military in the WW-I timeframe. After WW-I, DWM was permitted to manufacture commercial pistols for export. For the small permitted German defense army and police departments, the Erfurt tooling was sold to Simson & Co. in Suhl Germany. They reworked Lugers, used the existing stock of DWM parts and assembled a small number of completely new ones. DWM was eventually part of a conglomerate that included Mauser in Oberndorf Germany. In the early 1930s the DWM tooling was relocated to Mauser and they began to surreptitiously make military Lugers with the coded "K" date in 1934 and "G" date in 1935. In 1936 the Germans threw off the Versailles treaty and began manufacturing military Lugers openly. The Simson tooling was confiscated by the Nazi government (Simson was owned by a Jewish family) and relocated to the Krieghoff factory in Suhl, Germany in the early 1930s. There, Krieghoff made Lugers for the Luftwaffe. These are highly sought after. Mauser stopped making Lugers in 1942 as the military contracts shifted to the Walther desighed P-38 pistol. Krieghoff made a small number for a few years after that. All German manufacture of the Luger ended with their collapse at the end of WW-II. I believe a small number were made from parts found at the Mauser and Krieghoff factories and proofed by the occupying French government. Over the following years, Mauser and others have made commercial Lugers for brief periods of time. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

08-14-2011, 09:43 PM	#3
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	From what I can see it is matching, orig. finish, and correct. A commercial gun, not issued to the military, but certainly not a "fake". 9mm or .30 cal? Insure it at $1000. dju

08-15-2011, 01:13 AM	#5
MrWindUp New User Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 4 Thanks: 3 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I guess I can determine if it's a 9mm or 30 Luger by dropping in a 9X19 and if it chambers then its a 9mm, if it only goes in partially, then it's a 30 right? I don't have any 30 Luger brass but if I recall, the 30 Luger is a bottle-neck cartridge right? I also read online and in one book that a couple of different manufacturers made the DWM Luger like Mauser and DWM? I am sorry for the dumb questions, I don't know the history on German Firearms. If it's Russian or American Military weapons, I'm all over it but don't know any history on these things. Thank you again for your help guys!!

08-15-2011, 01:20 AM	#6
MrWindUp New User Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 4 Thanks: 3 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Okay, I just figured I could find out now by pulling it apart and look down the chamber. It's defiantly a 30 Luger or some sort of bottle-necked round. SO 30 Luger it is! Good or Bad now??

08-15-2011, 11:03 AM	#8
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	"SO 30 Luger it is! Good or Bad now??" Good in that .30s are very accurate, and fun to shoot. The drawback is that the ammo is a bit on the spendy side if you shoot a lot, and don't reload your own ammunition. You have a very nice 1920 (aka 1923) Commercial Luger. __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

08-15-2011, 02:45 PM	#10
MrWindUp New User Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 4 Thanks: 3 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Great background on this thing. I love history and you seemed to sum it up quite well in this area. Thank you so much Marc. As for ammo, I do reload as I shoot an average of 1200 rounds per month. I have already ordered dies and brass for the 30Luger. I hope to shoot it on rare occasion. Great info guys! What's the possibility of getting accessories for this gun like the rifle stock and such?

08-15-2011, 03:03 PM	#11
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,096 Times in 1,676 Posts	I hate to dash your enthusiasm, but it is not legal to attach a stock to this model of short barreled Luger even though it does have a stock lug. Look on the bright side...you just saved a few hundred bucks on acquiring a stock. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction Last edited by Ron Wood; 08-15-2011 at 06:02 PM.

08-15-2011, 03:26 PM	#12
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,284 Thanks: 7,013 Thanked 2,478 Times in 1,320 Posts	As suggested above, hardcore collectors rarely, if ever, shoot their collectibles. When one contemplates the subsequent plummeting of their firearm's value, should an original part with a matching number break during use, you might consider ordering up replacement parts which would be most vulnerable, and installing them in your Luger when using it, if you must. Extractor and firing pin are reputed to be most susceptible to damage. Also check to see if the firing pin is grooved, or fluted, on its business end, as this is also a safety issue. It escapes me at the moment whether a 1920 is fluted, but I think maybe not. The grooves are, in part, to allow venting of gas pressure around the pin as opposed to its perfect gas-piston behavior if un-fluted. You may already be familiar with how a pierced primer can affect a gun. Check with Lugerdoc, right here on this forum, or with the various online parts sellers, for these stand-in parts. Also be sure to research the appropriate loads--also here in a forum search. As you will note, most collectors are quite cranky about shooting Lugers that are as collectible as yours because once damaged, it can never be original again. The more desirable, the crankier we get. Congratulations on your acquisition!

08-15-2011, 06:48 PM	#13
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,372 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	Antony, as Ron mentions you can't put a stock onto your Luger without changing it's firearm classification in the eyes of the ATF. You should not possess a stock either since having it and the Luger could constitute "intent"... A "short barreled rifle" is treated the same way as a machine gun by US law. If you have an original Artillery luger you can attach an artillery stock. If you have an original Navy luger, you can attach a navy stock. Both combinations are specifically exempted by the ATF allowing collectors to own those specific curios. You can obtain reproduction holsters pretty economically. Finding original holsters made for a commercial Luger may be fairly costly. Original military holsters run in the $200 range and more. Same thing on the loading tools. The reproduction holsters often include a reproduction loading tool. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

08-25-2011, 11:57 AM	#14
jimw User Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I have what looks like the same gun but the markings are slightly different. My serial number (#5096) is stamped in the same place, however there is a script small letter "l" (as in Lima) stamped below the serial number. It does have the crown over the N stamped above the serial number. On the back of the toggle is the number "96". "Germany" is stamped on the left side of the barrel. Can anyone help with the pedigree of this gun?

08-25-2011, 12:54 PM	#15
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,372 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	Jim, You have most likely got a later "DWM Alphabet Commercial" Luger. This would have been made in the early 1920s (My "m" block was probably early 1923) for export to the USA. Pictures are always helpful. Try opening a new forum thread with them and you're sure to get more information. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.