Spanish 9mm Ammunition

David6FL · 08-22-2007, 03:09 PM

Is there any way to tell 9mm submachine gun ammunition from regular pistol ammunition? I acquired a couple of thousand rounds of Spanish made ammunition and no information about it other than the head stamp is 9mm and 41 which I assume is the manufacture date, and black lacquer on the primer.

Sieger · 08-22-2007, 04:56 PM

Hi:

Watchout for corrosive primers!!!

This is a silly question, but are you sure you purchased 9x19 (Parabellum)ammo? The Spanish used 9x23 ammo (Largo) during this period.

Sieger

David6FL · 08-22-2007, 05:02 PM

It is 9x19 and just to be safe I am assuming it is corrosive.

Sieger · 08-22-2007, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tacfoley
You could borrow somebody else's Luger, fire a couple, then as the owner helps you look for the toggle and breech-block you might casually mention that the recoil seemed to be a mite stiff, and shouldn't he get a new recoil spring....while he was refurbing the thing...

Just a thort....

tac

Tac:

May he borrow one of yours?

Sieger

Sieger · 08-22-2007, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David6FL
It is 9x19 and just to be safe I am assuming it is corrosive.

Hi:

That being established, I read a test report, back in the 1960s, about "machine gun ammo" used during WWII. The article concluded that there was no ammo made during the war that couldn't be safely fired in a pistol. I doubt, however, that your Spanish ammo was part of that test.

Are the primers crimped in? If not, this could simply be commercial pistol ammo.

I quess you will have to fire some and find out. I wouldn't fire it in your Luger until you could establish that it wasn't too hot for it.

Some name brand chinese ammo I tried in my late war Mauser was much, much too hot for the Parabellum system. This stuff was loaded to +P+ specs .

In my experience, Lugers don't function will with 124 gr. ammo with a velocity much over 1,100 feet per second

David6FL · 08-22-2007, 05:29 PM

Here's the reason for my question. I've had this ammunition for years, it is not crimped by the way. After I first got it, I tried firing some in an Erfurt Luger I had. I had never fired the Erfurt before this. It would jam after every shot. The reason for the jam was that the firing pin retainer would not hold in the the breach block locking grooves. It would back out and jam the gun. Since I had never fired the gun, I don't know if the problem existed before I tried shooting it or if the ammunition caused the problem.

Sieger · 08-22-2007, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David6FL
Here's the reason for my question. I've had this ammunition for years, it is not crimped by the way. After I first got it, I tried firing some in an Erfurt Luger I had. I had never fired the Erfurt before this. It would jam after every shot. The reason for the jam was that the firing pin retainer would not hold in the the breach block locking grooves. It would back out and jam the gun. Since I had never fired the gun, I don't know if the problem existed before I tried shooting it or if the ammunition caused the problem.

Hi:

You would have had to pierce primers and have the gass blow the plug back against its locking grooves violently to cause the condition you are telling us about.

Did you experience any pierced primers?

Sieger

davidkachel · 08-23-2007, 01:32 AM

You can't save enough money on foreign ammo or Joe Bloe's reloads to make blowing up your gun and possibly vaporizing a couple of your fingers worth it. The last time I let a jerk slip me a few of his daddy's reloads I thought I was firing a .44 Magnum instead of a 38 special. I informed him the ammo was not factory (he had put it into a factory box as if it was new), and also added a few choice remarks about his heritage.
1. Many, many amateurs take up reloading and 99% of them load too hot, give up after a while and then sell the remainder of what they loaded. Those little time bombs are out there by the tens of thousands.
2. Foreign made ammo has too long a history of non-uniform and corrosive behavior to trust any gun you value with it and too many foreign manufacturers have an established pattern of poor quality control.

Sieger · 08-23-2007, 03:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by davidkachel
You can't save enough money on foreign ammo or Joe Bloe's reloads to make blowing up your gun and possibly vaporizing a couple of your fingers worth it. The last time I let a jerk slip me a few of his daddy's reloads I thought I was firing a .44 Magnum instead of a 38 special. I informed him the ammo was not factory (he had put it into a factory box as if it was new), and also added a few choice remarks about his heritage.
1. Many, many amateurs take up reloading and 99% of them load too hot, give up after a while and then sell the remainder of what they loaded. Those little time bombs are out there by the tens of thousands.
2. Foreign made ammo has too long a history of non-uniform and corrosive behavior to trust any gun you value with it and too many foreign manufacturers have an established pattern of poor quality control.

Hi:

I couldn't disagree with these comments more.

Sieger

David6FL · 08-23-2007, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sieger
Hi:

You would have had to pierce primers and have the gass blow the plug back against its locking grooves violently to cause the condition you are telling us about.

Did you experience any pierced primers?

Sieger

No, there were no pierced primers or gas blow back. I guess the locking grooves were badly worn when I got the gun. I am having the block welded and grooves recut.

davidkachel · 08-23-2007, 06:42 PM

Sieger,
Do you mean to say you CAN save enough money on foreign ammo or Joe Bloe's reloads to make blowing up your gun and possibly vaporizing a couple of your fingers worth it?
I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with.
Do you mean beginners/amateurs DON'T reload too hot and then foist their little bombs on unsuspecting people (I was in a gun store a few days ago and listened to a conversation between one of the sales people and a guy on the phone who wanted to know if he should fill up his cases all the way with powder XYZ or if not, "how far up to fill them").
And do you mean that foreign ammo makers DON'T have a long and well-deserved reputation for poor quality control and corrosive ammo that is often corrosive even when the box says it is not.
I'm completely puzzled.

Sieger · 08-23-2007, 09:30 PM

davidkachel:

"Do you mean to say you CAN save enough money on foreign ammo or Joe Bloe's reloads to make blowing up your gun and possibly vaporizing a couple of your fingers worth it?"

If you exercise some common sense and know what you are buying, yes. Some of the foreign 9x19 ammo is excellent stuff. Reloads, well, you have to know how they are loaded. If in doubt, pass up the deal.

"I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with."

I hope I've cleared that up.

"Do you mean beginners/amateurs DON'T reload too hot and then foist their little bombs on unsuspecting people (I was in a gun store a few days ago and listened to a conversation between one of the sales people and a guy on the phone who wanted to know if he should fill up his cases all the way with powder XYZ or if not, "how far up to fill them")."

I believe it is illegal to sell your reloads to anyone, unless you have a licence to manufacture ammo. Knowing this, simply don't buy reloads that are produced by amateurs. If someone else wants to kill themselves, let them deal with that.

"And do you mean that foreign ammo makers DON'T have a long and well-deserved reputation for poor quality control and corrosive ammo that is often corrosive even when the box says it is not."

You are trying to lump all foreign manufactures together here. This is illogical at best. If you buy crap, that's what you have bought. If you buy quality, that is what you have bought. It's up to you to educate yourself as to what is crap and what is quality.

If you have a question on a certain type of ammo, please question it in this forum and we will respond with our comments.

"I'm completely puzzled."

I hope this explanation has cleared up your confusion.

Sieger

Sieger · 08-24-2007, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rick W.
I really do not think it is fair to lump all manufacturers together or to do the same with individual reloaders. Seems to be good and bad in all camps.

I tend to forget when I have to shoot factory ammo on qualification, and get a dud, that that company produces more quality ammo in a day, than most quality individual reloaders do in 100 years. Reputation is everything in the cartridge world, whether corporate or individual; for a safety and liability point of view...................as well as bottom line.

As a reloader for a while, I do not load for anyone but myself. I do prefer to load my own over big name factory ammo, just because of the fun of it, as well as being able to cater the load specific to a firearm. One has to work at producing quality ammo, takes knowledge, time and effort. Just another way of enjoying the shooting sports really. Not to forget, the general savings in doing so, as my labor is free. I am kinda glad to be out of the corporate world where my labor time was not free......:-)

I think I would try to figure out who makes suitable quality ammo, whether big name or little name. Knowledge goes a long ways in the world, that even includes the shooting world. I really do not think that shooting someone else's reloads is really prudent, especially if you do not know that person from Adam. A graceful decline might have been better. Knowledge in general has its dues.

Rick W.

Rick:

I couldn't agree with you more!

Sieger

08-22-2007, 03:09 PM	#1
David6FL User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Spanish 9mm Ammunition Is there any way to tell 9mm submachine gun ammunition from regular pistol ammunition? I acquired a couple of thousand rounds of Spanish made ammunition and no information about it other than the head stamp is 9mm and 41 which I assume is the manufacture date, and black lacquer on the primer.

08-22-2007, 05:02 PM	#3
David6FL User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Spanish 9mm Ammunition It is 9x19 and just to be safe I am assuming it is corrosive.

08-23-2007, 01:32 AM	#8
davidkachel User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 784 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	You can't save enough money on foreign ammo or Joe Bloe's reloads to make blowing up your gun and possibly vaporizing a couple of your fingers worth it. The last time I let a jerk slip me a few of his daddy's reloads I thought I was firing a .44 Magnum instead of a 38 special. I informed him the ammo was not factory (he had put it into a factory box as if it was new), and also added a few choice remarks about his heritage. 1. Many, many amateurs take up reloading and 99% of them load too hot, give up after a while and then sell the remainder of what they loaded. Those little time bombs are out there by the tens of thousands. 2. Foreign made ammo has too long a history of non-uniform and corrosive behavior to trust any gun you value with it and too many foreign manufacturers have an established pattern of poor quality control. __________________ A heroin habit would be cheaper.

08-23-2007, 06:42 PM	#11
davidkachel User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 784 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Sieger, Do you mean to say you CAN save enough money on foreign ammo or Joe Bloe's reloads to make blowing up your gun and possibly vaporizing a couple of your fingers worth it? I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with. Do you mean beginners/amateurs DON'T reload too hot and then foist their little bombs on unsuspecting people (I was in a gun store a few days ago and listened to a conversation between one of the sales people and a guy on the phone who wanted to know if he should fill up his cases all the way with powder XYZ or if not, "how far up to fill them"). And do you mean that foreign ammo makers DON'T have a long and well-deserved reputation for poor quality control and corrosive ammo that is often corrosive even when the box says it is not. I'm completely puzzled. __________________ A heroin habit would be cheaper.

08-23-2007, 09:30 PM	#12
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,575 Thanks: 2,124 Thanked 400 Times in 249 Posts	The Facts davidkachel: "Do you mean to say you CAN save enough money on foreign ammo or Joe Bloe's reloads to make blowing up your gun and possibly vaporizing a couple of your fingers worth it?" If you exercise some common sense and know what you are buying, yes. Some of the foreign 9x19 ammo is excellent stuff. Reloads, well, you have to know how they are loaded. If in doubt, pass up the deal. "I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with." I hope I've cleared that up. "Do you mean beginners/amateurs DON'T reload too hot and then foist their little bombs on unsuspecting people (I was in a gun store a few days ago and listened to a conversation between one of the sales people and a guy on the phone who wanted to know if he should fill up his cases all the way with powder XYZ or if not, "how far up to fill them")." I believe it is illegal to sell your reloads to anyone, unless you have a licence to manufacture ammo. Knowing this, simply don't buy reloads that are produced by amateurs. If someone else wants to kill themselves, let them deal with that. "And do you mean that foreign ammo makers DON'T have a long and well-deserved reputation for poor quality control and corrosive ammo that is often corrosive even when the box says it is not." You are trying to lump all foreign manufactures together here. This is illogical at best. If you buy crap, that's what you have bought. If you buy quality, that is what you have bought. It's up to you to educate yourself as to what is crap and what is quality. If you have a question on a certain type of ammo, please question it in this forum and we will respond with our comments. "I'm completely puzzled." I hope this explanation has cleared up your confusion. Sieger

08-22-2007, 04:56 PM	#2
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,575 Thanks: 2,124 Thanked 400 Times in 249 Posts	Hi: Watchout for corrosive primers!!! This is a silly question, but are you sure you purchased 9x19 (Parabellum)ammo? The Spanish used 9x23 ammo (Largo) during this period. Sieger

08-22-2007, 05:29 PM	#6
David6FL User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Here's the reason for my question. I've had this ammunition for years, it is not crimped by the way. After I first got it, I tried firing some in an Erfurt Luger I had. I had never fired the Erfurt before this. It would jam after every shot. The reason for the jam was that the firing pin retainer would not hold in the the breach block locking grooves. It would back out and jam the gun. Since I had never fired the gun, I don't know if the problem existed before I tried shooting it or if the ammunition caused the problem.