.30 Luger ammo observations

Sticker · 08-10-2007, 08:33 PM

Hi

I recently acquired a 06/29 Swiss Luger and, being the inquisitive type, set out to get my hands on all the different types of .30 Luger ammo I could find. Using a Crony here are my results

Current Winchester does an average of 1132fps out of my 4.75" barrel.

Fiocchi FMJ does an average of 1204 fps
Fiocchi JSP does 1180 fps

an old box of Western 1218 fps (much better made then the new Winchester stuff)

Remington Kleenbore (rem-umc) 1222fps

Norma 1117 fps Did not lock the toggle back

My reloads, Hornady 90grn XTP with 5.2grn IMR SR4756 1198 fps
5.5grn IMR SR4756 1253 fps

Observations:

I read on some posts that the Winchester ammo is more powerful then Fiocchi. Well, it's louder. It also burns dirty, leaves unburnt powder flakes in the bore, these flakes build up and then make dents in the bottle neck area of the brass when firing. Bullets are not very straight in the cases, lots of little nicks in the brass. In short, Winchester is awful.
I like the Fiocchi, I bought 10 boxes of the stuff. The speed of the Fiocchi ammo matches the old loadings I found. Fiocchi brass is beautiful, well made. Sealed primers, bullet seating is uniform. Great stuff.

Has anyone cronied any Swiss military rounds? What is the supposed muzzle velocity, of Swiss ammo?

My next adventure is to try some cast bullets, as soon as I make a .312 case mouth expander for the brass.

Stephen

spartacus38 · 08-10-2007, 09:05 PM

Great info. I have had excellent results with Fiocchi FMJ.

I had some feeding problems with Fiocchi JSP.

Bob

lugerholsterrepair · 08-10-2007, 09:14 PM

Stephan, I have had great success reloading with lead bullets. I have also used copper FMJ .32 bullets run thru a Lee bullet sizer to the proper size. They are much more common bullet than the .30 and easier to find. The only trouble I have found reloading the .30 is crushing the shoulder while seating the bullet.
What dies do you use? I have used Lee but I am not sure about them...Jerry Burney

Sticker · 08-10-2007, 09:53 PM

Hi

Lee dies....how do I hate thee, let me count the ways!

I had a set of Lee dies in .30 Mauser. A 3 die set for a bottle neck? I was wondering what was up. The resizing die sized down the neck to much. Then you used a flair die to open up the case mouth. Seating the bullet, you got a wasp shaped bottle neck. I like an hour glass shape on a girl, not on a cartridge. I got a set of RCBS dies in .30 Mauser. Nice normal 2 die set. Makes beautiful ammo. When it was time for .30 Luger dies, RCBS.

My new dies work good. Finished ammo looks like a factory loading.

.30 Luger RCBS dies are less expensive then .30 Mauser. I guess the Luger is way more popular.

lugerholsterrepair · 08-11-2007, 08:48 AM

I think your right..I have to find a set..Thanks for the advice, Jerry Burney

Ron Smith · 08-11-2007, 09:23 AM

Jerry,

Redding dies are great too. I have gone to Reddings in just about everything I reload. They are a bit more difficult to find, but turn up once in awhile. Have to agree with Stephan on the Lee's. Had a set in 38-40, they mangled the brass and were very un-uniform.

Ron

Rod WMG · 08-11-2007, 03:35 PM

I don't know what's up with Winchester on some of their ammo. I got some .32 S&W Long awhile back and it was very underposered (I know that's lawyer-driven!), but it was also extremely dirty.

An old box of Western ammo I got from my late stepfather shot to POA at 25 yards (Win. at 10!) and burned clean. I had to go to reloading this to get any acceptable results.

I'm not that impressed with the Fiocchi .30 Luger stuff, particularly the soft point. This is the only brand I can find. Another set of dies to buy.

Pete Ebbink · 08-11-2007, 04:05 PM

Finnish ammo for ~ $ 15/50 rounds...they say call to get current pricing before ordering...

http://www.samcoglobal.com/ammo.html

Rod WMG · 08-11-2007, 07:22 PM

Thanks, Pete!

spartacus38 · 08-11-2007, 07:31 PM

Rod, Have you tried the FMJ Fiocchi?

I never had a problem with it.

Bob

Sticker · 08-11-2007, 08:14 PM

Hi

I got my dies from Natchez. Their price now is $26.81 for RCBS and $18.99 for Lee. I did a search for Redding, but could not find .30 Luger dies on the Natchez site.

Interesting side note:

I was looking at the velocities of the Fiocchi .30 Luger ammo. Around 1200fps. Which is what their catalog says. Now their .30 Mauser ammo did 1247 out of my M30 model (5.2" bbl) The catalog says that it's suppose to do over 1400fps. I guess they don't trust old Broomhandles.

I fired one DWM .30 mauser round out of my M30 and it did 1345fps, and if you look at my fastest speed out of my luger, 1222fps with the REM-UMC, old George did not give up all that much velocity when he made his .30 caliber cartridge to fit his pistol.

Smaller pistol, easier to aim, more accurate, changeable mags capable of being topped up, kind of sums up why few nations gave the Mauser broomhandle a second look.

Stephen

Rod WMG · 08-12-2007, 07:18 PM

Bob, I bought a box of the fmj and the soft point. The FMJ was much better functioning and seemed pretty accurate in limited testing.

It was a frustrating experience whooting the .30 Luger, however, due to jamming on the majority of shots. I have to get out again with aftermarket mags.

spartacus38 · 08-12-2007, 10:45 PM

Rod, Try the FXO or Code 122 Luger mags.

Bob

Rod WMG · 08-13-2007, 01:49 PM

Thanks, Bob.

Sticker · 08-23-2007, 01:49 PM

Hi Guys

I got my hands on a box of Kynoch 7.65 Parabellum and some old Norma Re ammo, the primers on them where domed.

The Kynoch did an average of 1283 fps. One round came in at 1308.

Norma Re at 1186fps. These Norma rounds performed much better then the rounds I wrote up about at the start of this thread. Makes me wonder if those first rounds where not perhaps someones crummy reloads.

Overall lengths:

Fiocchi fmj 1.119"
Fiocchi sp 1.122"
Rem-UMC 1.139"
Western 1.149"
Norma Re 1.175"
Winchester 1.142"
Kynoch 1.169"

That makes Fiocchi the runts of the family.

Stephen

unspellable · 08-28-2007, 02:11 PM

May be a batch difference but I could not break 1150 fps with Winchester in any of several pistols up to a six inch barrel. My Fiocchi was slower than thew Winchester. Ejection was weak.

unspellable · 08-28-2007, 02:12 PM

May be a batch difference but I could not break 1150 fps with Winchester in any of several pistols up to a six inch barrel. My Fiocchi was slower than thew Winchester. Ejection was weak.

Sticker · 11-01-2007, 08:58 PM

Howdy

FYI

I had loaded about 50+ rounds of .30 Luger ammo, having noticed that, after taking a shot, when the gun reloaded itself, the toggle did not always seat down flat. Pushing down on the toggle, you could feel the toggle touch down on the receiver, and hear the two surfaces touch.

Taking factory ammo and comparing it to resized cases, using a vernier, I found that the bottleneck angle seemed to be a bit high.

I sent the die back to RCBS, with a sample empty, and a write up on my problem with the die.

They sent me a new resizing die, and I sized some case, and the same problem persisted.

I bought another shell holder, and using a die grinder and a lathe, removed .017" off the top of the shell holder.

I took the barrel and newly sized cases of various makes and matching factory ammo, and using a digital vernier, measured the distance between between the muzzle and the head of the cartridge case. The .017 did the trick as most resized cases where + or -.002 of the factory cases.

Modifying the shell holder was a fast fix, but does not change the fact that RCBS is not making their resizing dies properly.

So if you are using a new set of RCBS dies, make sure your toggle will close down completely on resized empties.

I plan on writing RCBS a letter with exact measurements and hopefully they will check their specs.

Stephen

unspellable · 11-02-2007, 07:17 AM

Be carefull about the toggle closing. The Luger will fire with the toggle short of locked. The consquences with a loaded cartridge would be a good deal more unpleasant than when I proved the point with a primed case.

John F. · 11-03-2007, 09:18 AM

Jerry Burney,

You mentioned crushing case necks on .30 Luger brass when seating bullets. I've found that it's important to inside-chamfer the case mouths to allow the bullets to seat easily. I use an RCBS tool, which works well for me. Have used the Lee tool many years ago and it couldn't begin to compare to the RCBS (or L.E. Wilson, which is the same design) in quality or results. If you aren't chamfering your case mouths, I think that will fix your problem.

hope this helps,
John

08-10-2007, 08:33 PM	#1
Sticker User Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Ontario Posts: 29 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	.30 Luger ammo observations Hi I recently acquired a 06/29 Swiss Luger and, being the inquisitive type, set out to get my hands on all the different types of .30 Luger ammo I could find. Using a Crony here are my results Current Winchester does an average of 1132fps out of my 4.75" barrel. Fiocchi FMJ does an average of 1204 fps Fiocchi JSP does 1180 fps an old box of Western 1218 fps (much better made then the new Winchester stuff) Remington Kleenbore (rem-umc) 1222fps Norma 1117 fps Did not lock the toggle back My reloads, Hornady 90grn XTP with 5.2grn IMR SR4756 1198 fps 5.5grn IMR SR4756 1253 fps Observations: I read on some posts that the Winchester ammo is more powerful then Fiocchi. Well, it's louder. It also burns dirty, leaves unburnt powder flakes in the bore, these flakes build up and then make dents in the bottle neck area of the brass when firing. Bullets are not very straight in the cases, lots of little nicks in the brass. In short, Winchester is awful. I like the Fiocchi, I bought 10 boxes of the stuff. The speed of the Fiocchi ammo matches the old loadings I found. Fiocchi brass is beautiful, well made. Sealed primers, bullet seating is uniform. Great stuff. Has anyone cronied any Swiss military rounds? What is the supposed muzzle velocity, of Swiss ammo? My next adventure is to try some cast bullets, as soon as I make a .312 case mouth expander for the brass. Stephen

08-10-2007, 09:14 PM	#3
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,760 Thanks: 4,848 Thanked 3,099 Times in 1,426 Posts	Stephan, I have had great success reloading with lead bullets. I have also used copper FMJ .32 bullets run thru a Lee bullet sizer to the proper size. They are much more common bullet than the .30 and easier to find. The only trouble I have found reloading the .30 is crushing the shoulder while seating the bullet. What dies do you use? I have used Lee but I am not sure about them...Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

08-11-2007, 08:48 AM	#5
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,760 Thanks: 4,848 Thanked 3,099 Times in 1,426 Posts	I think your right..I have to find a set..Thanks for the advice, Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

08-11-2007, 09:23 AM	#6
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Jerry, Redding dies are great too. I have gone to Reddings in just about everything I reload. They are a bit more difficult to find, but turn up once in awhile. Have to agree with Stephan on the Lee's. Had a set in 38-40, they mangled the brass and were very un-uniform. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

08-11-2007, 07:31 PM	#10
spartacus38 Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: South Lake Tahoe,CA. Posts: 695 Thanks: 0 Thanked 70 Times in 56 Posts	Ammo Rod, Have you tried the FMJ Fiocchi? I never had a problem with it. Bob

08-10-2007, 09:05 PM	#2
spartacus38 Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: South Lake Tahoe,CA. Posts: 695 Thanks: 0 Thanked 70 Times in 56 Posts	Great info. I have had excellent results with Fiocchi FMJ. I had some feeding problems with Fiocchi JSP. Bob

08-10-2007, 09:53 PM	#4
Sticker User Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Ontario Posts: 29 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi Lee dies....how do I hate thee, let me count the ways! I had a set of Lee dies in .30 Mauser. A 3 die set for a bottle neck? I was wondering what was up. The resizing die sized down the neck to much. Then you used a flair die to open up the case mouth. Seating the bullet, you got a wasp shaped bottle neck. I like an hour glass shape on a girl, not on a cartridge. I got a set of RCBS dies in .30 Mauser. Nice normal 2 die set. Makes beautiful ammo. When it was time for .30 Luger dies, RCBS. My new dies work good. Finished ammo looks like a factory loading. .30 Luger RCBS dies are less expensive then .30 Mauser. I guess the Luger is way more popular.

08-11-2007, 03:35 PM	#7
Rod WMG User Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: The Edge of Texas Posts: 514 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I don't know what's up with Winchester on some of their ammo. I got some .32 S&W Long awhile back and it was very underposered (I know that's lawyer-driven!), but it was also extremely dirty. An old box of Western ammo I got from my late stepfather shot to POA at 25 yards (Win. at 10!) and burned clean. I had to go to reloading this to get any acceptable results. I'm not that impressed with the Fiocchi .30 Luger stuff, particularly the soft point. This is the only brand I can find. Another set of dies to buy.

08-11-2007, 04:05 PM	#8
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Finnish ammo for ~ $ 15/50 rounds...they say call to get current pricing before ordering... http://www.samcoglobal.com/ammo.html

08-11-2007, 07:22 PM	#9
Rod WMG User Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: The Edge of Texas Posts: 514 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks, Pete!

08-11-2007, 08:14 PM	#11
Sticker User Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Ontario Posts: 29 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi I got my dies from Natchez. Their price now is $26.81 for RCBS and $18.99 for Lee. I did a search for Redding, but could not find .30 Luger dies on the Natchez site. Interesting side note: I was looking at the velocities of the Fiocchi .30 Luger ammo. Around 1200fps. Which is what their catalog says. Now their .30 Mauser ammo did 1247 out of my M30 model (5.2" bbl) The catalog says that it's suppose to do over 1400fps. I guess they don't trust old Broomhandles. I fired one DWM .30 mauser round out of my M30 and it did 1345fps, and if you look at my fastest speed out of my luger, 1222fps with the REM-UMC, old George did not give up all that much velocity when he made his .30 caliber cartridge to fit his pistol. Smaller pistol, easier to aim, more accurate, changeable mags capable of being topped up, kind of sums up why few nations gave the Mauser broomhandle a second look. Stephen

08-12-2007, 07:18 PM	#12
Rod WMG User Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: The Edge of Texas Posts: 514 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Bob, I bought a box of the fmj and the soft point. The FMJ was much better functioning and seemed pretty accurate in limited testing. It was a frustrating experience whooting the .30 Luger, however, due to jamming on the majority of shots. I have to get out again with aftermarket mags.

08-12-2007, 10:45 PM	#13
spartacus38 Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: South Lake Tahoe,CA. Posts: 695 Thanks: 0 Thanked 70 Times in 56 Posts	Rod, Try the FXO or Code 122 Luger mags. Bob

08-13-2007, 01:49 PM	#14
Rod WMG User Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: The Edge of Texas Posts: 514 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks, Bob.

08-23-2007, 01:49 PM	#15
Sticker User Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Ontario Posts: 29 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi Guys I got my hands on a box of Kynoch 7.65 Parabellum and some old Norma Re ammo, the primers on them where domed. The Kynoch did an average of 1283 fps. One round came in at 1308. Norma Re at 1186fps. These Norma rounds performed much better then the rounds I wrote up about at the start of this thread. Makes me wonder if those first rounds where not perhaps someones crummy reloads. Overall lengths: Fiocchi fmj 1.119" Fiocchi sp 1.122" Rem-UMC 1.139" Western 1.149" Norma Re 1.175" Winchester 1.142" Kynoch 1.169" That makes Fiocchi the runts of the family. Stephen

08-28-2007, 02:11 PM	#16
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 10 Posts	May be a batch difference but I could not break 1150 fps with Winchester in any of several pistols up to a six inch barrel. My Fiocchi was slower than thew Winchester. Ejection was weak.

08-28-2007, 02:12 PM	#17
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 10 Posts	May be a batch difference but I could not break 1150 fps with Winchester in any of several pistols up to a six inch barrel. My Fiocchi was slower than thew Winchester. Ejection was weak.

11-01-2007, 08:58 PM	#18
Sticker User Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Ontario Posts: 29 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	A problem with RCBS sizing die Howdy FYI I had loaded about 50+ rounds of .30 Luger ammo, having noticed that, after taking a shot, when the gun reloaded itself, the toggle did not always seat down flat. Pushing down on the toggle, you could feel the toggle touch down on the receiver, and hear the two surfaces touch. Taking factory ammo and comparing it to resized cases, using a vernier, I found that the bottleneck angle seemed to be a bit high. I sent the die back to RCBS, with a sample empty, and a write up on my problem with the die. They sent me a new resizing die, and I sized some case, and the same problem persisted. I bought another shell holder, and using a die grinder and a lathe, removed .017" off the top of the shell holder. I took the barrel and newly sized cases of various makes and matching factory ammo, and using a digital vernier, measured the distance between between the muzzle and the head of the cartridge case. The .017 did the trick as most resized cases where + or -.002 of the factory cases. Modifying the shell holder was a fast fix, but does not change the fact that RCBS is not making their resizing dies properly. So if you are using a new set of RCBS dies, make sure your toggle will close down completely on resized empties. I plan on writing RCBS a letter with exact measurements and hopefully they will check their specs. Stephen

11-02-2007, 07:17 AM	#19
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 10 Posts	Be carefull about the toggle closing. The Luger will fire with the toggle short of locked. The consquences with a loaded cartridge would be a good deal more unpleasant than when I proved the point with a primed case.

11-03-2007, 09:18 AM	#20
John F. User Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 37 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Jerry Burney, You mentioned crushing case necks on .30 Luger brass when seating bullets. I've found that it's important to inside-chamfer the case mouths to allow the bullets to seat easily. I use an RCBS tool, which works well for me. Have used the Lee tool many years ago and it couldn't begin to compare to the RCBS (or L.E. Wilson, which is the same design) in quality or results. If you aren't chamfering your case mouths, I think that will fix your problem. hope this helps, John __________________ John