Term forced matched

[Puretexan]

Ok when I hear this term, I imagine a guy in a factory
with a big hammer trying to get a toggle to fit into a
slide. Seems like if someone was changing parts on an
old gun ,he would have a bunch of blank parts and when
he found something that fit he would stamp the right
numbers on the part. Guess this is not how that was done.

[ithacaartist]

I don't think it takes all that big a hammer...

The "any part that fits" may not be that far off, Fresh parts in many circumstances, but sometimes the new numbers have been impressed right over the old. Another technique would be to work away enough material to remove the old markings before applying fresh ones.

If my understanding is correct, it was done during a couple of processes. One would be an official or semi-official way, most likely with the fresh parts you imagined, at a weapons depot, or maybe even at a military unit level, by armorers. The DDR did this post WWII to plenty of guns, rather crudely in some instances-- but not all, some were left original and untouched. Another reason is for a scammer to create an all matching gun, to deceive and reap a high price. Not so much a worry in the shooter price range, but for rare/valuable guns it is an art. The forgers slip up, their techniques exposed and identified, and they learn to better, more subtle work by knowing thereafter what not to do.

[Dwight Gruber]

Forced matching is much simpler than this.

Imagine a Luger which is all matching except for the sideplate--not an uncommon circumstance. Now imagine that the owner of this Luger has found an orphan sideplate with the same serial number as his pistol--also not an uncommon circumstance. Now imagine that Luger owner replacing the non-matching sideplate with the sideplate which has the matching number.

The Luger is now number-matching, but it is a forced match--the sideplate was never originally assembled to the pistol, in fact, could be from an entirely different manufacturer.

The principle is the same for any randomly replaced same-numbered part, not just a sideplate.

--Dwight

[Puretexan]

I read somewhere that when German soldiers were caught , they would drop
the sideplate off their lugers so the enemy wouldn't have a working pistol.

Wish there were some pictures of the factories where they reworked guns.
It would be nice to see if they had extra parts , or were taking apart the bad
ones , and reusing the parts.

[Edward Tinker]

I think the dropping sideplates is a myth - could have happened, but not often. I have heard of this happening by commanders telling allied troops to do this as a safety measure for shipping. And people doing this at home.

There are plenty of stories, but not of lugers - since Mauser production was to a dribble after the byf 42's. But lots of parts found at factories in bins.

From the USA side, pictures and lots of stories of parts used. However, although USA, there were in the field fixing of firearms and you know it happened for the germans too. It just wasn't documented like ours were. But remember, unit armorer does basic, quick fixes, depot where it is possible used parts were used, new parts would be used before any old parts.

With few exceptions, by the 1940's, I imagine factories fixing anything was in the minority.

[sheepherder]

My impression of 'forced match' was simply stamping a number on the part to make it 'match' the other numbers on the pistol.

YMMV

[Ron Wood]

Originally Posted by sheepherder

My impression of 'forced match' was simply stamping a number on the part to make it 'match' the other numbers on the pistol.

YMMV

Me too.

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by Puretexan

I read somewhere that when German soldiers were caught , they would drop
the sideplate off their lugers so the enemy wouldn't have a working pistol.

Wish there were some pictures of the factories where they reworked guns.
It would be nice to see if they had extra parts , or were taking apart the bad
ones , and reusing the parts.

Yes,
they had "extra" parts. There is a post here of a complete armorer's kit of parts, for the luger and the K 98.

Spare parts made in 1918 or before by Erfurt were still being used into the 1930's. Same for those Simson e/6 spare side plates used by Mauser in 1939!

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by sheepherder

My impression of 'forced match' was simply stamping a number on the part to make it 'match' the other numbers on the pistol.

YMMV

I agree,
I think the "forced" part is a mis-nomer.

It was simply "re-numbering" or numbering to match.

I'm not sure where "forced match" came from , but first time I heard it was years ago in relation to Russian Moisin rifles- most all had some "forced" matched parts.

[tomaustin]

in our classifieds down below, there is a regular stream of WTB certain #s on parts...how is this any different ?

it creates an "all matching", whether for sale or just bragging rights..........

[Dwight Gruber]

Originally Posted by tomaustin

in our classifieds down below, there is a regular stream of WTB certain #s on parts...how is this any different ?

It is not.

--Dwight

[DonVoigt]

I've posted many times-
There is a difference between "matching numbers(as in all original parts)" and in "all numbers match"; especially side plates.

Some times a part "could" be the original one, if the markings, age, style, finish remaining, and number font are exact matches, otherwise it is just "the same number".

[Lugerdoc]

When I hear the term "force matched" I think of some of the DDR/Russian imports with XXXed out serials that have been renumbered with non-standard dies. This would exclude mismatched PO8 with parts that have original, but not matching, numbers or lugers restored with correct font, but not original, matching numbers. TH

[DonVoigt]

Further food for thought:
"forced match" is an oxymoron, if it is forced it doesn't "match".

[Wastoute]

Don, it seems to me that the possible reason for the numbering would be down the line an armorer could disassemble several guns for cleaning, etc. and as long as he first checked to see none were of the same last two digits he could be confident that reassembling them would not lead to a nightmare of problems. So if he had spares and discovered that one needed a new part he could just stamp one of the spares with the matching last two. THat part may not perfectly match the shape/contour/ whatever of the original but it was part of the legitimate process for fielding the weapons. So one could have in your hands a pistol that looked in every way the same but one was "legit" (at least in my mind, perhaps not in the mind of a very serious collector) and the other was created decades later by someone in an attempt to deceive.

[mrerick]

This is one reason that, when I answer the question about what a collectible Luger is, I generally say that collectors value Lugers based on how close to their original factory state they are. Those that are most close to original factory state (the moment they left the factory) are valued the highest.

Finding matching numbers on a Luger is only part of what is necessary to determine this. Since parts can be replaced and numbered to the gun, or recycled and renumbered to the gun (forcing the match) you have to look closer.

On side plates from Mauser and DWM, this is why the number inside the plate (if present) is important. One in 10,000 will actually match the numbers properly. Other parts with numbers are one in 100. But even if the number matches properly, you still have to evaluate other characteristics to determine if the part was on the gun when it left the factory.

In some cases, you cannot really determine this. I just accept the match and move on.

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by Wastoute

Don, it seems to me that the possible reason for the numbering would be down the line an armorer could disassemble several guns for cleaning, etc. and as long as he first checked to see none were of the same last two digits he could be confident that reassembling them would not lead to a nightmare of problems. So if he had spares and discovered that one needed a new part he could just stamp one of the spares with the matching last two. THat part may not perfectly match the shape/contour/ whatever of the original but it was part of the legitimate process for fielding the weapons. So one could have in your hands a pistol that looked in every way the same but one was "legit" (at least in my mind, perhaps not in the mind of a very serious collector) and the other was created decades later by someone in an attempt to deceive.

Quite right as to "how" this could occur- but still "mismatched" as in not the original part.

[Puretexan]

Makes me wonder how many totally original pistols there are out there floating around.
I guess some of the ones for sale are just fixed with the same serial numbered parts, and not really all matching.
Will have to look closer at them from now on.

[Schupo]

Having been trained as a police armorer I can tell you that the "parts is parts" philosophy is the working premise of making a firearm serviceable. IMHO if a part is "force matched" by an armorer, a repair facility, or armory it is an "official" refurbishment. If done by Bubba to make it more sale-able it is not. Sometimes it is hard to tell the difference without knowledge.

For instance, the German Police had some 100 trained police armorers operating about the same number of field firearms repair facilities during WWII. These fellows would have repaired firearms and replaced missing or broken parts as part of their official duties. They would have used their stock of un-numbered parts to make repairs and would have re-numbered some as practical. The Polizei also operated full armories where more difficult repairs, or updates such as P.08 sear/magazine safeties, could be made. The DDR Volkspolizei maintained a large police armory at Suhl and produced the "forced matched" firearms with new barrels, reblue, etc. that we now see as VP weapons. All this was officially done but did not come from the factory this way.

If you only collect factory fresh firearms then German Police firearms are not for you due to the protocols of police armorers and the German penchant for never throwing anything serviceable away but refurbishing and re-working them. Take the Steyr Hahn pistols that were given new barrels in 9mm Parabellum while others in the original 9mm Steyr were still in service by the WWII Polizei. Or, the completely reworked police broomhandles with shortened barrels and removed back sights. All official modifications by the police.

An interesting topic that each collector must sort out for themselves and then either avoid "forced matched" firearms or educate themselves as to what was allowed during the period of use. I think the refurbished police firearms are extremely interesting and one of the reasons I collect them.

[DonVoigt]

I collect police lugers also, and do not consider them "forced" match when they have period replacement parts that were numbered to the pistol. They have matching numbered parts, not necessarily those they left the factory with as you point out; this includes the sometimes "ugly" cross outs and over stamps of the RC and Vopo pistols, though often they include these re-numbered replacement parts and other non matching parts that were not re-numbered.