RUSSIAN AMMO BLOW UP LUGER!!!

Bob in AZ · 05-06-2002, 12:57 AM

Okay guys, here's the proof that not all 9mm Russian ammo is loaded to spec. The ammo used was Russia Brown Bear 115gr FMJ bimetal case. Just purchased, new stuff, shot about 200rds before the blow up happened. Here's the story...

I just had GT rebuilt the magazine for my friends 1916 Erfurt. The mag had a loose bottom and soft spring. So it jammed everytime you shot it.

Today I invited my friend Dave to come out and try his Erfurt with newly rebuilt magazine. As I expected the gun function perfectly. GT's rework not only made the gun function well, but it LOOKS great too.

Dave's son was also with me and wanted to shoot the Luger. I helped him load up the magazine and off he went. I think it was about the 3rd or 4th magazine full when the gun went KaBOOM.

As you can see from the pic the cartridge blew out through the extractor cut area in the barrel. This blew the extractor up and back through the bolt. Chipped the bolt on both sides and broke off the little foot on the extractor.

No one was hurt, thank goodness, just Dave's Erfurt. YES we all were wearing our shooting glasses. Now I have always shot the Russian WOLF 9mm ammo and never had a problem. I only just bought this Russia Brown Bear stuff because thats all the stores/gun shows seem to be carrying lately.

So there you have. Your looking at the proof.

Bob

http://www.public.asu.edu/~bpz357/luger.jpg

Thor · 05-06-2002, 01:13 AM

Glad you are okay! Thanks for the alert! Thor

Johnny Peppers · 05-06-2002, 01:18 AM

Bob,

I am only looking at the picture, but that appears to be an out of battery firing. Where the cartridge case blew out, it should have been completely supported if the breech was in locked position. If the breech was not completely in battery when the pistol fired, it would have blown out through the extractor cut in the barrel as this is the least supported area of the chamber. Is that signs of case head expansion in what would be the feed ramp area? If so, that again points to an out of battery firing.

Orv Reichert · 05-06-2002, 01:42 AM

OK...the bulge to the rear of the case is clear indication that the gun was fired when the bolt was not properly close and locked. The blow out to the side is further indication that the case was not supported by the barrel when the ignition took place.

The damage, in my opinion was caused by the release of gases to the rear thru the ruptured case.

If a Luger is properly 'locked up' when fired, the unlocking action is so slow that the pressure in the barrel will even not blow the case out...it takes an extractor to remove it [try it some time?]

I don't think you had an ammo problem. [IMHO]

Orv Reichert

Bob in AZ · 05-06-2002, 01:48 AM

No, this was not a out of battery firing. The case was still FULLY seated in the chamber after the gun blew up. The belly in the fired casing was were it started to flow out the bottom of the chamber from high pressures. This was no doubt a over charged round.

If you notice the blow hole in the casing, it IS at the right point were it would line up with the extractor cut. I just dropped a live round into he chamber of one my my Lugers. I then put a mark at the point of the extractor cut area with a felt pen. It IS in the very same spot that the blown casing has the hole.

No, sorry to say, this was a bad round. I was standing 3 feet away and watching the gun when it happen. He was firing one slow shot at a time. That gun was locked up.

Bob

HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr · 05-06-2002, 02:03 AM

I am with Bob on this one.

I thinks it's absolutley clear that the gun was locked properly.

The extractor cut in the barrel does go very far in to the chamber, much longer in than the feedramp goes and therefor you will most likely get the ruption there.

The belly on the case is a very clear indication of the feedramp cut. And you wouldent see that belly if it was one of the out of batterys firings.

If the round had exploded when shot out of battery much more would have happend to the case, and not only have a hole for the extractor cut.

Either the cartridge was heavaly overloaded or the case have been far to soft and thin and therefor ruptured.

My recomendation is to stick to quality ammo and not buy the eastern stuff, after all those guns can never be bougth new again.

Regards HÃ?Â¥kan

http://www,vapensmedjan.com

G.T. · 05-06-2002, 02:11 AM

If you look at the bottom of your P.08 receivers with the breechblock all the way closed, you will see that there is quite a bit of relief on the barrel, where the feed ramp angle is cut into the chamber...this is ahead of the extractor groove....this case shows expansion and flow into this area....looks like a baaaad cartridge to me!!! No Russian stuff for me! Till....later....G.T.

Bob in AZ · 05-06-2002, 02:14 AM

If you think this round blew up out of battery, then I ask you this. Just how darn little is the lock up margin for a Luger. Like I said, that blow hole in the casing is right at where the casing should be during full luck up. After the gun blew up the first thing I noticed was the casing was stilll fully seated in the chamber, never moved back. I had to beat in out with a rod.

BTW, I have HAD a pistol round blow up out of battery in another handgun on my. I still have the scar in my chin to show for it. And like Hakan Spuhr said, the casing WILL blow all to hell in a out of battery firing. I still have all the pieces of brass the doctor picked out of my chin.

Dan44 · 05-06-2002, 02:38 AM

I've also had problems with Wolf in my Luger, not anymore! I'll pay the little extra for the better stuff. My old Wolf will be used in an old Helwan I got in a trade.

Orv Reichert · 05-06-2002, 03:03 AM

I had a PPk .380 discharge with the breach not closed. it bulged the rear of the case badly just about like yours but the case did not rupture. [It was a thrill, however!]

I will defer to all the experts...

Orv Reichert

05-06-2002, 09:50 AM

Dan, Using hot ammo in a Hewan may not be a good idea either. I've parted out a couple that had either cracked or deformed slides, from hot ammo. Tom

Johnny Peppers · 05-06-2002, 10:06 AM

The picture you posted just does not support the breechblock being completely into battery. The hole that is blown out in the case is well forward of the extractor cut when the case and breechblock are completely in battery. The hole that is blown out in the cartridge case would have been fully contained within the barrel. Also, the blown out piece of metal that is turned up is still attached to the cartridge case. This piece of metal could not have been in the chamber unless it was bent into that position during the removal from the chamber.

Bernard · 05-06-2002, 12:30 PM

I'm sory in advance if anyone takes offense at this, but I could never understand feeding anything less than 1st class ammo to a firearm such as a Luger. These pieces are worth a lot of money, and/or have historical value, and we take chances to save a few bucks???

Even here in the P.R. of Kalifornia quality 9MM ammo is readily available and priced so reasonably that one does not have to reload or resort to using ammo with a dubious pedigree.

Just my opinion.

Orv or someone, can the initial message be loaded on the P-38 forum? Hate to see one of those beauties go this way.

05-06-2002, 12:43 PM

Another perspective. We shoot about 15K rounds of 38 super (long 9mm) a year. When this round 1st became popular we were blowing cases. Barrels with internal feed ramps solved the problem which was the fact that the case was not capable of the pressure involved. Furter develpment by the companies making brass increased the materal in the base of the case.

What you may have here are cases that are not strong enough in the base area to handle the 9mm pressures which are extreemly high. Check your SAMI pressures.

I would not use anything in my Lugers but ammo that I am sure that met the SAMI specs. It just isn't worth the chance to me of destroying a Luger.

Neil

Brian · 05-06-2002, 01:32 PM

Just received 1000 rounds of this stuff! Contacted vendor who said she hasn't heard of any problems as of yet. She was interested in more info on this. I told her that there was more details on this forum (photos,explaination,etc.). I gave her the forum web address. I think I am going to return it.

Herb · 05-06-2002, 01:53 PM

I had fired about 6 or 8 rounds of Russian ammo in my broomhandle when the next round blew the bolt in half. Later found out that the Russian 7.63 is made for sub-machine guns and is way too powerful for a handgun, sure wish it had a notice to that effect, no more Russian for me, dang Commies.

Dok · 05-06-2002, 04:02 PM

Johnny Peppers · 05-06-2002, 04:49 PM

A friend got a round of Russian .45ACP hung in the barrel of his Springfield that required a trip to the gunsmith to get out. The only thing they could figure was that the lacquer was so thick on the case that it jammed and then stuck to the chamber. It did not chamber completely; so the pistol was locked up. The firing pin was removed, and the round was driven out with a wooden dowel. The chamber was coated with what appeared to be the lacquer coating of the ammo.

AGE · 05-07-2002, 12:15 AM

Rick,

Did you ever see the original Lee loader in use? Everything is done with a hammer. First, the old primer is driven out, then the case is sized by driving it into a die with a hammer. Next, a hammer is used to install a live primer (exciting to watch). Then the powder is dumped in and the bullet seated with a hammer.

Not for me, but I never heard of an accident.

AGE

Steve · 05-07-2002, 09:34 PM

When I first started shooting I bought Lee loaders for 9mm and 7x57. I loaded hundreds of rounds with both using a board across my lap and a hammer. I switched to a plastic head on the hammer to keep from damaging the rod further than I already had but never had a primer go off. The instructions were very explicit about seating the primer before adding powder and the bullet! I now have a Lee turret head press but would not hesitate to use the old hammer-pounder.

05-06-2002, 12:57 AM	#1
Bob in AZ User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona Posts: 66 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	RUSSIAN AMMO BLOW UP LUGER!!! Okay guys, here's the proof that not all 9mm Russian ammo is loaded to spec. The ammo used was Russia Brown Bear 115gr FMJ bimetal case. Just purchased, new stuff, shot about 200rds before the blow up happened. Here's the story... I just had GT rebuilt the magazine for my friends 1916 Erfurt. The mag had a loose bottom and soft spring. So it jammed everytime you shot it. Today I invited my friend Dave to come out and try his Erfurt with newly rebuilt magazine. As I expected the gun function perfectly. GT's rework not only made the gun function well, but it LOOKS great too. Dave's son was also with me and wanted to shoot the Luger. I helped him load up the magazine and off he went. I think it was about the 3rd or 4th magazine full when the gun went KaBOOM. As you can see from the pic the cartridge blew out through the extractor cut area in the barrel. This blew the extractor up and back through the bolt. Chipped the bolt on both sides and broke off the little foot on the extractor. No one was hurt, thank goodness, just Dave's Erfurt. YES we all were wearing our shooting glasses. Now I have always shot the Russian WOLF 9mm ammo and never had a problem. I only just bought this Russia Brown Bear stuff because thats all the stores/gun shows seem to be carrying lately. So there you have. Your looking at the proof. Bob http://www.public.asu.edu/~bpz357/luger.jpg

05-06-2002, 01:13 AM	#2
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Re: RUSSIAN AMMO BLOW UP LUGER!!! Glad you are okay! Thanks for the alert! Thor

05-06-2002, 01:18 AM	#3
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: RUSSIAN AMMO BLOW UP LUGER!!! Bob, I am only looking at the picture, but that appears to be an out of battery firing. Where the cartridge case blew out, it should have been completely supported if the breech was in locked position. If the breech was not completely in battery when the pistol fired, it would have blown out through the extractor cut in the barrel as this is the least supported area of the chamber. Is that signs of case head expansion in what would be the feed ramp area? If so, that again points to an out of battery firing.

05-06-2002, 01:42 AM	#4
Orv Reichert RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SW Washington State Posts: 339 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	BLOW UP OK...the bulge to the rear of the case is clear indication that the gun was fired when the bolt was not properly close and locked. The blow out to the side is further indication that the case was not supported by the barrel when the ignition took place. The damage, in my opinion was caused by the release of gases to the rear thru the ruptured case. If a Luger is properly 'locked up' when fired, the unlocking action is so slow that the pressure in the barrel will even not blow the case out...it takes an extractor to remove it [try it some time?] I don't think you had an ammo problem. [IMHO] Orv Reichert

05-06-2002, 01:48 AM	#5
Bob in AZ User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona Posts: 66 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re:NO out of Battery No, this was not a out of battery firing. The case was still FULLY seated in the chamber after the gun blew up. The belly in the fired casing was were it started to flow out the bottom of the chamber from high pressures. This was no doubt a over charged round. If you notice the blow hole in the casing, it IS at the right point were it would line up with the extractor cut. I just dropped a live round into he chamber of one my my Lugers. I then put a mark at the point of the extractor cut area with a felt pen. It IS in the very same spot that the blown casing has the hole. No, sorry to say, this was a bad round. I was standing 3 feet away and watching the gun when it happen. He was firing one slow shot at a time. That gun was locked up. Bob

05-06-2002, 02:03 AM	#6
HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Sweden Posts: 282 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: BLOW UP I am with Bob on this one. I thinks it's absolutley clear that the gun was locked properly. The extractor cut in the barrel does go very far in to the chamber, much longer in than the feedramp goes and therefor you will most likely get the ruption there. The belly on the case is a very clear indication of the feedramp cut. And you wouldent see that belly if it was one of the out of batterys firings. If the round had exploded when shot out of battery much more would have happend to the case, and not only have a hole for the extractor cut. Either the cartridge was heavaly overloaded or the case have been far to soft and thin and therefor ruptured. My recomendation is to stick to quality ammo and not buy the eastern stuff, after all those guns can never be bougth new again. Regards HÃ?Â¥kan http://www,vapensmedjan.com

05-06-2002, 02:11 AM	#7
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,506 Thanks: 1,318 Thanked 3,653 Times in 1,004 Posts	I agree with Bob....overpressure...... If you look at the bottom of your P.08 receivers with the breechblock all the way closed, you will see that there is quite a bit of relief on the barrel, where the feed ramp angle is cut into the chamber...this is ahead of the extractor groove....this case shows expansion and flow into this area....looks like a baaaad cartridge to me!!! No Russian stuff for me! Till....later....G.T.

05-06-2002, 02:14 AM	#8
Bob in AZ User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona Posts: 66 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Lock Up Margin If you think this round blew up out of battery, then I ask you this. Just how darn little is the lock up margin for a Luger. Like I said, that blow hole in the casing is right at where the casing should be during full luck up. After the gun blew up the first thing I noticed was the casing was stilll fully seated in the chamber, never moved back. I had to beat in out with a rod. BTW, I have HAD a pistol round blow up out of battery in another handgun on my. I still have the scar in my chin to show for it. And like Hakan Spuhr said, the casing WILL blow all to hell in a out of battery firing. I still have all the pieces of brass the doctor picked out of my chin.

05-06-2002, 02:38 AM	#9
Dan44 User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 78 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	not anymore...... I've also had problems with Wolf in my Luger, not anymore! I'll pay the little extra for the better stuff. My old Wolf will be used in an old Helwan I got in a trade.

05-06-2002, 03:03 AM	#10
Orv Reichert RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SW Washington State Posts: 339 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	More I had a PPk .380 discharge with the breach not closed. it bulged the rear of the case badly just about like yours but the case did not rupture. [It was a thrill, however!] I will defer to all the experts... Orv Reichert

05-06-2002, 09:50 AM	#11
Tom Heller Guest Posts: n/a	Re: not anymore...... Dan, Using hot ammo in a Hewan may not be a good idea either. I've parted out a couple that had either cracked or deformed slides, from hot ammo. Tom

05-06-2002, 10:06 AM	#12
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: not anymore...... The picture you posted just does not support the breechblock being completely into battery. The hole that is blown out in the case is well forward of the extractor cut when the case and breechblock are completely in battery. The hole that is blown out in the cartridge case would have been fully contained within the barrel. Also, the blown out piece of metal that is turned up is still attached to the cartridge case. This piece of metal could not have been in the chamber unless it was bent into that position during the removal from the chamber.

05-06-2002, 12:30 PM	#13
Bernard User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Diego Posts: 35 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: I agree with Bob....overpressure...... I'm sory in advance if anyone takes offense at this, but I could never understand feeding anything less than 1st class ammo to a firearm such as a Luger. These pieces are worth a lot of money, and/or have historical value, and we take chances to save a few bucks??? Even here in the P.R. of Kalifornia quality 9MM ammo is readily available and priced so reasonably that one does not have to reload or resort to using ammo with a dubious pedigree. Just my opinion. Orv or someone, can the initial message be loaded on the P-38 forum? Hate to see one of those beauties go this way.

05-06-2002, 12:43 PM	#14
Neil Guest Posts: n/a	Re: BLOW UP Another perspective. We shoot about 15K rounds of 38 super (long 9mm) a year. When this round 1st became popular we were blowing cases. Barrels with internal feed ramps solved the problem which was the fact that the case was not capable of the pressure involved. Furter develpment by the companies making brass increased the materal in the base of the case. What you may have here are cases that are not strong enough in the base area to handle the 9mm pressures which are extreemly high. Check your SAMI pressures. I would not use anything in my Lugers but ammo that I am sure that met the SAMI specs. It just isn't worth the chance to me of destroying a Luger. Neil

05-06-2002, 01:32 PM	#15
Brian New User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Minn Posts: 2 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: RUSSIAN AMMO BLOW UP LUGER!!! Just received 1000 rounds of this stuff! Contacted vendor who said she hasn't heard of any problems as of yet. She was interested in more info on this. I told her that there was more details on this forum (photos,explaination,etc.). I gave her the forum web address. I think I am going to return it.

05-06-2002, 01:53 PM	#16
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Blew up my Broomhandle too! I had fired about 6 or 8 rounds of Russian ammo in my broomhandle when the next round blew the bolt in half. Later found out that the Russian 7.63 is made for sub-machine guns and is way too powerful for a handgun, sure wish it had a notice to that effect, no more Russian for me, dang Commies.

05-06-2002, 04:02 PM	#17
Dok RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Bermuda (Eat Your Heart Out) Posts: 1,626 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	I agree with you Bernard! (EOM)

05-06-2002, 04:49 PM	#18
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Blew up my Broomhandle too! A friend got a round of Russian .45ACP hung in the barrel of his Springfield that required a trip to the gunsmith to get out. The only thing they could figure was that the lacquer was so thick on the case that it jammed and then stuck to the chamber. It did not chamber completely; so the pistol was locked up. The firing pin was removed, and the round was driven out with a wooden dowel. The chamber was coated with what appeared to be the lacquer coating of the ammo.

05-07-2002, 12:15 AM	#19
AGE User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 597 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Blew up my Broomhandle too! Rick, Did you ever see the original Lee loader in use? Everything is done with a hammer. First, the old primer is driven out, then the case is sized by driving it into a die with a hammer. Next, a hammer is used to install a live primer (exciting to watch). Then the powder is dumped in and the bullet seated with a hammer. Not for me, but I never heard of an accident. AGE

05-07-2002, 09:34 PM	#20
Steve User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ohio Posts: 200 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Old Lee loaders When I first started shooting I bought Lee loaders for 9mm and 7x57. I loaded hundreds of rounds with both using a board across my lap and a hammer. I switched to a plastic head on the hammer to keep from damaging the rod further than I already had but never had a primer go off. The instructions were very explicit about seating the primer before adding powder and the bullet! I now have a Lee turret head press but would not hesitate to use the old hammer-pounder.