Presentation Luger pics.

[Doug G.]

This gun is up for sale by a local man. As you can already guess it is expensive. Gun has complete provenance.More to follow.

[wterrell]

Please! What is the story on this Luger?

[wterrell]

And the right side is absolutely beautiful!!!!

Is this the original presentation case?

[Doug G.]

Wes, as far as I know this is the original leather bound presentation case. The gun is almost totally engraved and is 100% covered in burnished 24k gold. This includes the bore (what I could see as I didn't open the action) both magazine tubes Artillery type cleaning rod and loading tool. The gun started out as a 1939 Banner Police and still retains the sear safety.

Without getting deep the gun was presented to Franz Von Papen who was the ambassador to Austria for the Third Reich. This gun was given to him by Joachim von Ribbentrop the Foreign minister of Germany.

I have seen this gun first hand and can attest to it's beauty. I have also seen the papers that go with it from such notables as Egbert Von Pappen (son), Bob Simpson and most recently Butterfields auction house and there is also papers from the Mauser factory.

[Jan C Still]

Doug
Who is selling the Von Papen Luger? What is its price?

This Luger was investigated in detail by German and US members of the National Automatic Pistol Collectors Association several years ago. I will see if I can find the articles.
Jan

[wterrell]

Is it for sale by private treaty?

[Doug G.]

Jan, check your private message box.

[Klaus]

Hi Doug,

it has been established several years ago already that the Papen-Luger is a fake, the documents are fake and your "notable Egbert von Papen" doesn't exist.
Why don't you guys wake up and smell the coffee,
there are a bunch of crooks, Schwindlers and Scheissmeisters out there just waiting to get their hands in your pocket.

Klaus

<img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[nono]" /> Klaus, although you might have strong opinions on this, this can appear as an attack towards others, things such as this [quote] Why don't you guys wake up and smell the coffee,
there are a bunch of crooks, Schwindlers and Scheissmeisters... <hr></blockquote> is not very acceptable and can start some flaming towards each other. It would be far better to tell us why it is a fake and some proof that it is a fake. I have never heard of this before and I am sure that others are not as knowledgeable as you are in this area and therefore might be put off by stating something without proof.
Are there magazine articles, books etc., that you can cite to the forum?

Edward Tinker
P08 Military Moderator

[wterrell]

Klaus,

This notoriety is what has given this pistol a unique position in speculative investments.
The coffee is pretty rank but it is still coffee.

[Doug G.]

Klaus, first let me state that I am trying to help the present owner sell the gun. I do find it hard to believe that Butterfields did research on the pistol and concluded that it was Ok. If you have proof show it! [img]mad.gif[/img]

[Ron Wood]

This particular Luger was the topic of some discussion in the NAPCA newsletter some time ago. I have not been able to locate the articles yet but I will keep looking. Some old timers and people who have read the articles are aware of the debate, but this knowledge is not automatically transferred to new comers to the hobby. They can't smell the coffee because they weren't even aware there was a pot on the stove.

There is a disturbing trend recently to let strong beliefs and anger over past experiences color the language used in this forum. That type of posting contributed to the termination of the old forum. We can't let history repeat itself. Moderators are reluctant to step in prematurely and squelch freedom of expression, so let's all think twice before we speak (write) once. Consider how the words you choose might be interpreted by someone who does not have your point of view.

[Edward Tung]

If this gun is a fake, it sure is the most beautiful fake I have ever seen and should be worth quite a bit just for the effort put into making it. <img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" />

[Klaus]

I guess the Luger Forum is not for me.

Wishing you guys good luck and much success.

Klaus

[Edward Tinker]

Sorry you feel that way Klaus, we are trying to have a forum with good discussions, but careful on the flaming.

You are plenty welcome and a couple friends have told me that you are knowledgeable and would be good for us.

Please reconsider and as Ron said, we all just need to be careful at times in how we word things.

Ed

[Marvin]

This Luger definetly was discussed by the membership of NAPCA for almost a 2 year period. The final results was proven that it was a very good fake. Reinhard Kornmeyer of Germany spent many hours researching this pistol and it was proven to be a fake.

After the truth came out, the owners sent a letter to NAPCA, and it was published, complaining how the their "investment" for profit had been lost due to the truth coming out. It appears that they are trying again to pass off a fake and hope folks have forgotten the real truth.

A few of the items that came out in the research was that there was never any Egbert von Papen, and von Ribbentrop would have never given von Papen anything as they hated each other. Also, the pistol started life as a Police Luger and then reworked. Why would a Government Official have a Police Luger reworked as a gift???

Anyway, this is what I remember about this pistol.

Marvin

[Lugerlvr]

Here we go again "shooting the messenger", as happens so often in our discussions. We sometimes don't want to or refuse to see the truth, when it goes against what we want to believe. Thanks Klaus, not for me, because I'd probably never own the gun, but for the newcomer, with more money than sense, that would probably have paid $10,000.00 for the gun, thinking he got a great deal. If you can't stand the heat, than turn down the stove. This is absolutely not a knock against the original poster(it's a very pretty gun), but rather, an opinion.As I found out the hard way, you can't trust very many people in this hobby, no matter what their reputation, and rehtoric(sp.)

<img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" />

[John Sabato]

Members... It is the moderator's job to maintain decorum and order in the discussions in his area. Ed Tinker took clearly appropriate action regarding the manner in which Klaus expressed his knowledge on this subject. No one took issue with Klaus' allegation, only the manner in which it was presented. As other longer-term members have since agreed, there has been published evidence regarding this Luger's authenticity.

Klaus, you are a new member here... and perhaps you are not familiar with the rules of behavior. They are found in the Forum Decorum document under General Information at the home page:

http://www.lugerforum.com/ForumDecorum.html

Please familiarize yourself with them. If you chose to leave the forum because you were chastised by the forum moderator for violation of the forum decorum, then that will be your choice, but it certainly isn't necessary... Stick around and pass on your Luger knowledge and learn from others as well... Just try to picture how your words can be interpreted by someone who is NOT familiar with what you are talking about before you push the Add Reply button and I am sure you will do just fine.

thanks to all for you comments and understanding...

[Lugerlvr]

Ed (Tinker), you were right in the fact that Klaus could have chosen better words for his rebutal. I think he was trying to get at the central issue of people who sell things that they know to be false. The information was great, albiet flaming. I believe that if you tell the truth, it helps the hobby, and there is no harm in posting it. There is a difference between saying that the gun is cr**, and stating that the gun does not appear to be original, and most likely a made up story. It compounds the issue when and if a well respected dealer or collector sells the gun as authentic, when he knows it isn't. I apologize if Ed or anyone else was offended by my remarks. They were not meant to cause harm, but illustrate a point.

[img]eek.gif[/img]

[Lodi Jim]

On a lighter subject â?? how bout another lesson on how to post pictures so that the paragraphs arenâ??t three times wider than my screen. Iâ??m getting carpal tunnel using my arrow key trying to read these dialogs. [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

[Pete Ebbink]

Hello Jim and others,

To have multiple photos stack neatly and vertically, each image string needs to have a carriage return added after seach image string.

Without a carriage return, the photos are displayed end-for-end, horizontally...

I guess I am old enough to know that a "carriage return" originated on typewriters and not keyboards...