Bitter Sweet Sale on the 1910

[Double T]

The 1910 is my first internet sale of a firearm. And, as pleased as I am to have sold it for exactly what I was asking, something has happened to leave a bitter aftertaste. I'd like to bounce some questions off the forum members for my own edification. Except for #4, they are all important to me.

#1. If two or more folks respond via email to an internet offering, does the seller have an obligation to any one of them until an offer is made to purchase?

#2. When should the seller stop considering all respondents? That is, a question or offer that would obligate the seller to hold the gun in favor of one and not consider the others.

#3. When two or more potential buyers are apparently sincerely looking into making the purchase, is the seller obligated to respond to all requests for information before committing to selling the gun to a bonafide offer? If so, how long should he wait for responses?

#4. Does the axiom "Money talks, Bulls--- walks" apply to internet sales of firearms?

Finally, congratulations to the forum member that bought the gun. I hope it is every thing you expected, but if not, our agreements stand. You were a delight to do business with. To the disgruntled member who feels that I dirty dealt him by selling the gun out from under him without responding to his questions, I did the best I could... If that isn't good enough, please answer #4 above.

To the forum moderator... Please can this post or any part of it if you feel that it is inappropriate for the forum.

Thanks,
Ron

[Edward Tinker]

1. No you decide when, where and if you want to sell a gun.
2. Up to you, you're the seller.
3. Its up to you to decide how much info you want to give.
4. Why not?

And as a moderator of this section, I feel that this is some ligitimate questions, but keeping things civil in something like this can be difficult and we'll see, . <img src="graemlins/icon501.gif" border="0" alt="[icon501]" />

I would think that if I had e-mailed you and gotten a reply, I would think you were considering me and of course the other guy on the other end has no clue if you have five guys interested or none besides themself.

On the other hand, Bob the salesman e-mails you in the morning Pacific time at 7 AM to him, you get it at 9 AM Alabama time, he gets home really late and e-mails you the next morning. Seems forever to you because you are waiting for his reply or just the opposite, Bob is all excited is off for two days and you reply 36 hours later.

Perception is in the eye of the beholder.

You hold the upper hand as the seller, but...

[Roadkill]

Good questions. How would you have handled it if you were at a gunshow and two guys were interested? Without a "I'll buy it, here is the $", or unless you made an agreement, implied or definite to hold it, then the first to make the agreement and finalize the purchase and put the money in the mail gets the gun. I'm sorry for the disagreement, I do this for fun and don't need hassels. I've lost several "deals" by walking around the show just to see what was there, then came back to see the gun walk away for less than my offer was because of my lack of committment.


RK

[Edward Tinker]

Very true RK!

[img]rolleyes.gif[/img]

[AGE]

I guess I was the guy who upset Ron. He noted his interest in selling the 1910 on the forum on June 7th and I asked for information that day. On the 10th I received some general info. and asked questions about barrel condition and if he had shot it. On the 13th he told me it was sold. I expressed my unhappiness that it was sold before he answered my questions. I guess E-mail (delays in delivery or in reading them) might have been a part of the problem.

I agree, the first guy with the cash should get the gun. But nevertheless, it is disappointing if it sells while you're trying to figure out what it is.

[Roadkill]

Two ways of looking at this, and its something eventually most of will deal with if we do business other than face to face, first, its a new way of doing business for a lot of us and there are things that have not been worked out by both buyers and sellers and there will be difficulties. Second, it has expanded my capacity to spend money on guns beyond my wildest dreams in arenas previously unexplored. Good intentions prevail, we all learn, and I was really disappointed when DoubleT told me he had a firm offer on it. Being nearly neighbors and all I thought he should have given me special consideration.

RK

[Kyrie]

Hi Double T,

In my opinion,....

â??#1. If two or more folks respond via email to an internet offering, does the seller have an obligation to any one of them until an offer is made to purchase?â?�
No. The seller is only obligated to fellow the who says, â??Sold. Iâ??ll take it. Where do I send payment?â?� Thatâ??s the buyer. Everybody else is a tire kicker :-)

#2. When should the seller stop considering all respondents? That is, a question or offer that would obligate the seller to hold the gun in favor of one and not consider the others.
The seller should stop considering all respondents as soon as a buyer says, â??Sold. Iâ??ll take it. Where do I send payment?â?�

#3. When two or more potential buyers are apparently sincerely looking into making the purchase, is the seller obligated to respond to all requests for information before committing to selling the gun to a bonafide offer? If so, how long should he wait for responses?
No. A question from a prospective buyer is not an offer to buy. A seller is not obligated to answer any questions from prospective buyers, though it is in the sellerâ??s best interest to do so. A question from a prospective buyer is not an offer - it doesnâ??t obligate the seller to hold the item.

Warm regards,

Kyrie

[Roadkill]

Doesn't get much clearer than that. Consider posting this over in general information? Could help prevent other misunderstandings.

RK

[wterrell]

With such a clear understanding of the seller/buyer relationship/transaction, Kyrie is the man with whom I would do business at any time.

[Herb]

I buy on the internet. I insure that I have a no questions asked, money back guarentee and a short (3 day) inspection period in which to return the goods. This way I don't have the problems you guys experienced, just say I'll take it pending my inspection, send the money get the item. This could be made a policy of this Forum, ANY sales made on this forum will be subject to a three day inspection period with a money back guarentee, less S&H. Violators will be banned from future sales. What do you think?

[Roadkill]

This is getting into an area that was discussed a while back reference vendor ratings, similar to the ebay scoring system. Excellent theory, however consensus was the Luger Forum Gods had no desire to become participants in a potentially liable rating program. And there are always two positions on every disagreement and multitudes varying opinions

RK

[John Sabato]

The forum can only give advice on how to conduct transactions, but the forum can make no such policy since it does not conduct any such sales.

The forum's ONLY policy for Internet transactions of any type is CAVEAT EMPTOR (Buyer Beware).

This forum is an information exchange on the Luger Pistol. Firearms or other sales transactions between members are completely independent of their association with the Lugerforum.

Even though there is a classified section of this forum. All transactions are the responsibility of the seller and the buyer... The forum does not negotiate nor take complaints regarding sales through the classified ads any more than a newspaper would do so for items sold through their classified pages.

[Kyrie]

Hi Folks,

This type of conversation tends to fix on the seller, but we need to be aware that there are also unscrupulous buyers out there. Let me illustrate with a couple of my own experiences.

I sold one fellow a nice, matching, collector grade (about 98% blue, 70% straw) Imperial Luger. He sent it back, saying it wasnâ??t what he thought it was going to be. Sâ??OK - that happens. But when I inspected it I found heâ??d swapped the original firing pin for an unmarked replacement. My best guess is he bought it because he wanted the numbered part and never had any intention of keeping it.

Then there was the fellow I sold a very nice ac 41 P.38. Also matching, very close to 100% blue. He sent it back, saying it was â??brokenâ?�. It was broken all right. The bore was full of lead, it was filthy, and the locking block was broken. Apparently heâ??d used it to try out his cast bullet reloads!

Neither of these people received a refund. While Iâ??m sure I made no friends in either transaction, these are the kind of enemies I donâ??t mind having.

I usually give a three day inspection period to any buyer. Iâ??ll refund the sellerâ??s money if: 1) he informs me within three days of his receipt that he is returning it and, 2) it comes back to me in the same condition I shipped it (which also means unfired).

Warm regards,

Kyrie

[Karl]

Wow, I'm the buyer of Double T's 1910 and just logged on.

My two cents worth concerning internet transactions is that unless you have a C&R license or a very friendly relationship with your local gun dealer, that three day inspection is going to cost you about $30. for the transfer fee (plus another $5 here in Georgia for the phone-in background check) plus return postage if you're not satisfied. So you have to ask a lot of questions and still take a bit of a risk. I recently kept a luger that I should have returned because I figured that with two-way postage and all the rest I already had about $70. invested in the gun.

I understand the Forum's policy about not rating sellers or getting involved in transactions, but there is value in knowing that fellow forum members who sell guns, etc. have reputations for integrity. There should be a policy for banning members who engage in truly unscrupulous business practices (I'm not talking about disagreements over the percentage of strawing).

Anyway, I guess this puts extra pressure on Double T to deliver a nice shooter. [img]biggrin.gif[/img] And now I have an excuse to post a photo when it arrives. KFS

[Double T]

Boy Karl.. you really know how to put the pressure on a guy. Like I said before, I hope it is far more than you expect, otherwise, I believe the conditions you laid out are fair and they'll be honored to the letter. My only concern is what lays inside the metal.. it is really pretty nice outside.

This thread has wondered a bit from the original topic. That is, the dissatisfaction of one potential buy that thought he didn't get a fair shake when someone else got the gun. As Al stated in his post, I believe cyberworld is the culprit here, not either Al or myself. I sincerely believe I gave him as much information as I did you. He sincerely believes he didn't receive it. I never intended for the thread to go this far, especially into identities. My questions have been thoroughly answered and I appreciate all of the response.

Ron

[Karl]

Double T,

I am confident that I will be satisfied with my purchase and that if there is any problem (which I doubt), you and I will resolve it like men (you don't have to meet someone in person to know that you are dealing with a mensch). The thread has been long but it has obviously dredged up concerns that needed to be addressed. As for those who expressed interest in the gun, it should be noted that I acted quickly and aggressively. As you can attest, I accepted your price but with a long list of very specific conditions which you agreed to. I do not feel that you gave me any special treatement, I was simply the first person to say "sold." KFS

[AGE]

Karl,

I guess you got enough info. to satisfy yourself. I also have the dealer problem (I don't have a license) and I have it doubly difficult because I am out of my state of residence for a while. These things sure get in the way of internet Luger collecting fun.

Anyway, I was trying to be sure the 1910 was what I wanted before jumping through the many hoops required in the process while you were making hay.

Good luck and happy shooting? collecting? or whatever.

[Karl]

AGE,

Definately a shooter, I can't imagine owning Luger that would just sit in a pretty box or something. If you ever travel north toward Savannah let me know and we'll waste some FMJ. KFS

[Roger]

Friends,

I've just read through the discussion thread and thought I'd put my two cents in. I've made a number of purchases via the internet and for the MOST PART haven't been disappointed. However, I feel one of the greatest advantages is simply getting a better handle on the current market value of the type of gun your interested in. This can be difficult if you live in an area that doesn't have many gunshops or gunshows of interest. Also, many of the reference books don't seem to be right on when it comes to prices.

If you are new to the Luger collecting hobby, just TRY to stay calm and take the time to compare asking prices / conditions / rarity / confidence in the seller. Education is the FIRST thing you need, not a Luger. Always keep in mind... the first buyer who says "I agree to your price. Where do I send my money?" is going to get the goods.

Also, I STRONGLY recommend getting a C&R (Curio & Relics) collectors license. It is not a difficult process and it makes things MUCH easier. You can save a lot of $$$ in the long run on transfer charges.

Sorry about the long post. It's a pleasure to be part of this community.

Roger

[AGE]

Karl,

Actually I'll be traveling on Rt. 95 past Savannah in Sept. as I migrate south with the ducks and "snowbirds". I am retired, spend 8 mos. in FL watching (and thinking about shooting) alligators and 3-4 summer mos. in the wilds of PA, WV and NY visiting kids and friends. Will be heading home with my P-08 in the trunk (although my FL permit is good in GA).

Regards,