Von Papen Luger story as I know it. Long!!!

Doug G. · 06-25-2002, 10:53 PM

Wow, I did not think that posting this gun would stir up a hornetÃ¢??s nest! [img]frown.gif[/img] This is the history of the gun as far as I know it. It was turned up by Bob Simpson 20+ years ago and was sold to a collector in the Chicago area for $40000. A friend of mine then acquired it. He sold it to a co-worker (for an undisclosed figure) who was looking for a long-term investment. The present owner is now retired and would like to be rid of it to spend the money on other things. As for it's "dubious" provenance I can only attest to the papers that I saw. These consist of a paper from the Mauser factory authenticating it. A paper from the infamous "Egbert" and a letter guaranteeing it's authenticity from SimpsonÃ¢??s LTD. It was recently submitted to Butterfields Auction house to be sold. They did research on the gun and thought that it was Ok. But wanted to start the gun at a price that was far below the price he paid and without a reserve. They cold not come to terms and he decided to not let them auction it. This is where it ends, I as a favor to the man thought that I would see if anyone here was interested in it. I am not trying to get anything out of it and frankly could not care if it sells or not! I did have the opportunity to buy it 7 or 8 years ago for much less, but was not interested in embellished LugerÃ¢??s and passed. If it was researched and proved a fake then I do not know why any of the owners have not gone back to SimpsonÃ¢??s and demanded compensation? I know that if I was taken for a ride for this much money I sure would be going back to the original seller and demanding that he buy it back. Well I finally got that off my chest. To Klause if your still on the boards, I am not mad at you, but the tone of your post was very irritating to me. I would think that if you had access to the article you could post it. The last board got shut down due to people making accusations and offering no proof either way! All I had to go on was documents that seemed to be legitimate. I do not have the desire or the wherewithal to research it myself. I am now going to drink something very very strong EMO <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" />

Edward Tinker · 06-25-2002, 11:10 PM

Like you said Doug, we state the facts as we know them and go from there. Although not my cup of tea, if I was offered a Luger that looked like that from a Vet, and it was a good price, what the hey?

I do want a nickeled one, because so many GI's did that after the war, so I would like a rep of that being done. I find it funny on gun auction sites, they offer a premium for nickeled Luger's.

Funny stuff, huh? [img]rolleyes.gif[/img]

Jan C Still · 06-26-2002, 12:20 AM

Doug
Klaus indicated to you that the Von Papen Luger is a fake. Marvin provided details of the published information in AUTO MAG. klaus has no obligation to reprove to you what has already been poroven in a publication.

The seller and his representative (you) have a minimal obligation to research such an expensive Luger yourselves or at least recognize what has been published. Your post above does not indicate any serious recognition of what Klaus and Marvin reported to you.
Jan C. Still
PS. Bob Simpson is an old trusted friend. However in the matter of the Von Papen Luger we strongly disagree.

Edward Tinker · 06-26-2002, 12:50 AM

Since many of us don't have the background or have any idea who some of the "oldtimers" are that you guys seem to know, Klaus stating it was a fake and Doug had seen documents stating it was real, it is easy to understand who I would believe.
Someone you didn't know or seeing documents in person, some from Simpsons stating it was real?

There have been mistakes in many of the Luger books and magazine articles I have read, that doesn't mean I distrust them, but as you said, I take them with a grain of salt and research as much as I can. Older books have many more mistakes because of lack of knowledge back then and I think the newer books are better, but sometimes rely on old "facts". The thread on the .45 Luger serial #'s, is a good example.

Research is a key, and the more you check and get some help from other experts, the better.

06-25-2002, 10:53 PM	#1
Doug G. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Illinois Posts: 713 Thanks: 1 Thanked 53 Times in 17 Posts	Von Papen Luger story as I know it. Long!!! Wow, I did not think that posting this gun would stir up a hornetÃ¢??s nest! [img]frown.gif[/img] This is the history of the gun as far as I know it. It was turned up by Bob Simpson 20+ years ago and was sold to a collector in the Chicago area for $40000. A friend of mine then acquired it. He sold it to a co-worker (for an undisclosed figure) who was looking for a long-term investment. The present owner is now retired and would like to be rid of it to spend the money on other things. As for it's "dubious" provenance I can only attest to the papers that I saw. These consist of a paper from the Mauser factory authenticating it. A paper from the infamous "Egbert" and a letter guaranteeing it's authenticity from SimpsonÃ¢??s LTD. It was recently submitted to Butterfields Auction house to be sold. They did research on the gun and thought that it was Ok. But wanted to start the gun at a price that was far below the price he paid and without a reserve. They cold not come to terms and he decided to not let them auction it. This is where it ends, I as a favor to the man thought that I would see if anyone here was interested in it. I am not trying to get anything out of it and frankly could not care if it sells or not! I did have the opportunity to buy it 7 or 8 years ago for much less, but was not interested in embellished LugerÃ¢??s and passed. If it was researched and proved a fake then I do not know why any of the owners have not gone back to SimpsonÃ¢??s and demanded compensation? I know that if I was taken for a ride for this much money I sure would be going back to the original seller and demanding that he buy it back. Well I finally got that off my chest. To Klause if your still on the boards, I am not mad at you, but the tone of your post was very irritating to me. I would think that if you had access to the article you could post it. The last board got shut down due to people making accusations and offering no proof either way! All I had to go on was documents that seemed to be legitimate. I do not have the desire or the wherewithal to research it myself. I am now going to drink something very very strong EMO <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" /> __________________ Suppose you were an idiot.....and suppose you were a member of Congress.....But I repeat myself" ~~ Mark Twain

06-25-2002, 11:10 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	Like you said Doug, we state the facts as we know them and go from there. Although not my cup of tea, if I was offered a Luger that looked like that from a Vet, and it was a good price, what the hey? I do want a nickeled one, because so many GI's did that after the war, so I would like a rep of that being done. I find it funny on gun auction sites, they offer a premium for nickeled Luger's. Funny stuff, huh? [img]rolleyes.gif[/img] __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

06-26-2002, 12:50 AM	#4
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	Since many of us don't have the background or have any idea who some of the "oldtimers" are that you guys seem to know, Klaus stating it was a fake and Doug had seen documents stating it was real, it is easy to understand who I would believe. Someone you didn't know or seeing documents in person, some from Simpsons stating it was real? There have been mistakes in many of the Luger books and magazine articles I have read, that doesn't mean I distrust them, but as you said, I take them with a grain of salt and research as much as I can. Older books have many more mistakes because of lack of knowledge back then and I think the newer books are better, but sometimes rely on old "facts". The thread on the .45 Luger serial #'s, is a good example. Research is a key, and the more you check and get some help from other experts, the better. __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

06-26-2002, 12:20 AM	#3
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	Doug Klaus indicated to you that the Von Papen Luger is a fake. Marvin provided details of the published information in AUTO MAG. klaus has no obligation to reprove to you what has already been poroven in a publication. The seller and his representative (you) have a minimal obligation to research such an expensive Luger yourselves or at least recognize what has been published. Your post above does not indicate any serious recognition of what Klaus and Marvin reported to you. Jan C. Still PS. Bob Simpson is an old trusted friend. However in the matter of the Von Papen Luger we strongly disagree.