Krausewerk Lugers???

[Orv Reichert]

The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)

<img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" />

[mm]

Thank you all for your responses. This has been a good learning experience for me and I hope for others as well as to how best proceed with questions of Luger authenticity and dealer expertise and/or honesty. John Sabato has outlined what the protocol will be for this and I will abide by it.

Anyone who does inspect the Luger in question - please email me privately through the Forum's PM email feature - I am very still very interested in your responses. [img]cool.gif[/img] mm

[Garfield]

John Sabato/Moderator/Site Administrtor/What Ever:

Perhaps I have misinterpreted your directive regarding members comments re their experiences with dealers. As I understand your recent ruling, members can only post "POSITIVE" statements regarding transactions with a dealer. No member can respond in a NEGATIVING manner to a "POSITIVE" statement made by a member regarding a transaction with a dealer. Any NEGATIVE postings reagarding a dealer with be DELETED.

If I have read your directive correctly, I would suggest that you have a friend or acquaintance take a visual check to see how far (commented edited by Admin). <img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[nono]" /> Added by Moderator

Do you Moderators make up these rules up as you go along? No, they have a board that talks about these things. Added by moderator

If, somehow, I have misinterpreted the purport of your message, please disregard the that portion of my message that had to do with your rectum and your head. Hopefully meant to be funny and not directed at a certain person? Added by moderator

My Best,

GARFIELD

[Edward Tinker]

Garfield,

If you don't agree with something, then research it.

Find out that the person that posted this is a Site Moderator and not a whatever. (He does make up the rules in conjuction with several other board members).

Find out that you could ask a question via the Private Messages.

Ask for a clarification without the added sayings.

[wterrell]

[quote]I would suggest that you have a friend or acquaintance take a visual check to see how far up your rectum your head is. <hr></blockquote>

Really?! not personal?!

Edward, you, sir, are an optimist!

[Jimbo]

Hi Pete,

Why didn't I think of just e-mailing to find the store. Thanks. Sometimes the obvious solution is the furthest from your mind.

[tipoc]

To all,
I strongly agree that the name of the shop in question should have been communicated in a private e-mail rather than posted publically. Why? Read the above postings carefully. mm states that if there is something wrong with this particular Luger it would call all that he has learned from the guys over to Krausewerkes into qustion. Another posting implies that the store may be knowingly selling "bad" pistols i.e.passing off guns which have been reworked as originals, in order to make a buck. All of these ideas and a few others are associated with the name of a certain store and seller which have done nothing wrong so far as anyone knows and at worst can be accused of having made a mistake about a particular gun. A lot of people have made mistakes about particular guns, some well known experts in fact.

Seems to me the boys over to Krausewerke have acted honorably. When questioned about a certain gun they have invited other opinions. You cannot do better than that.

In the interest of full disclosure I have bought, sold and appraised guns with Krausewerke. They do not gouge on prices and have often spent their own unpaid time looking up information on particular guns for me. I have known them to be honest and when they have made mistakes to rectify them. This latter part is the true gage by which any "experts" opinion can be measured, not that they are always right but what they do when they are wrong.
tipoc

[John Sabato]

Very keen insights Tipoc... thanks for contributing.

[Bernard]

Let's remember that so much we post and discuss are OPINIONS. Parrticularly with a subject as diverse and complex as Lugers, no one has all the facts. So take the opinions for what they are. They are not the latest word to the exclusion of any and all further comments.

In the case of Krause, or many (Not all) other dealers, they do not know more than we as a group know, and probably far less. They, and many of the other dealers, have integrity and honesty, so if one makes a mistake or does not share someone's opinion does not in itself make they a "bad guy".

Let's hear about the dealers with whom we like to do business. They may not be everyone's trusted purveyor of Lugers, but they are for some.

[mm]

The problems with the Luger that I described above were (in my opinion) of the obvious type - problems that any knowledgable dealer in collectable Curios and Relics should have noticed - especially a Luger specialist. I have received private emails from other collectors concerning the reputation of this dealer and I am grateful for them. As I mentioned above, I will in the future, question a specific dealer's reputation and expertise via private channels and only refer to the dealer on this website in general, anonymous terms. Thank you all!

mm

[tipoc]

I stopped by Krausewerkes yesterday, to put some money on a Colt, and while there looked at the two byf's in question. A second set of eyes looking at a gun often helps. I am no expert on P08's but I do have some experience looking at things that go bang when you pull the trigger and I can tell most rework jobs.
I compared the guns side to side. The location of markings on the two pieces was identical, as were the markings except for the serial number of course.[serial numbers are usually reported in a 39xx type of format, rather than an xx85 format. Cuz the first tells us more or less when a gun was made, and other info, more than the latter. 01xx would tell us that this gun was amoung the first 200 guns made in this sequence, for example, while simply recording the last 2 digits, xx85, tells us nothing. Was it 0085? or 9985? to a collector this can often make a difference. I say this, with all respect, because of the first few posts in this thread.]
Let's cut to the chase. Both guns show wear. One much more wear than the other. This latter has the regular holster and handling wear, scratches and dings from a lot of use. A good looking, working piece that is 60 years old. It comes with a full rig, holster, etc. About 60-70%, maybe less. As already mentioned it's offered in the $1300 range.
The other shows much less wear. It is the pattern of wear that one sees sometimes on cop guns when the cop only takes the gun from the holster to qualify once or twice a year and when he uses the toilet. A desk officers gun. The muzzle, side plate, take down lever, grip panels (particularly the right side, where the palm rests, as is normal for right handed users)back of the strap, front sight, top of the toggles, where the safety rides up and down, etc. All show consistant patterns of wear.
The blueing looks consistant with what I have seen in other 60 year old dip (immersion) blued guns (byf's were not rust blued). There are very slight variations in it from barrel, to toggle, to take down, etc. where the different hardnesses of the metal among other things have reacted differently. But nothing, to my eyes anyway, radical.
Overall condition of the gun is 85-90%.
The grips; right grip shows slight normal wear. Left grip shows the same pattern of wear and a flaw. This is a slight flaw and one I've seen before. These type grips were made in a mold. Some times when a finished grip is pulled from a mold some small bit of it remains behind in the mold. When the next grip is molded and than pulled loose it has a raised area to it. The left grip here has such a raised area about .700 long and .100 to .150 wide. I removed the grips (with Mike's permission) and inside they looked the same as the grips on the other byf there and on one other I recently saw. I own a P-38 with a similiar type flaw.
This gun is offered at $1200. It does not come with a full rig. It is alone.
Please excuse the length of this post. I mean no disrespect to mm by disagreeing with him on the condition of the second gun.

[Roadkill]

Reading this is why I stay with shooters. This has all the factors. First of all there is an established reputable dealer in a real business who is a Luger dealer instead of a show table or email address. Second, there are knowledgeable interested parties who are willing to pay well for a desired item. Third, the guns have been seen in person by interested parties with the invitation of the dealer in an open as you will manner. The discussion has been going here with opinions available from all over the world. And there is no consensus. No one is being a jerk, no one is going to make money, but an agreement is not in sight. Maybe that's why a lot of Lugers are locked up in safes.

RK

[John Sabato]

I think in general this discussion has proceeded with manners and respect. I would like to thank all who have participated so far for not only their knowledge and observations, but with a single exception, the manner in which it was presented.

Tipoc, what your excellent description of the pistols from your perspective has proven is that no two people look at things the exact same way.

After reading the various descriptions of these two pieces, I don't think what is being asked is out of line considering that this shop is not a pawnshop, it is a retail gun dealer who is presumed to be in business to make an honest dollar. The prices currently asked will be paid by someone who WANTS these Lugers or the price will be adjusted accordingly as time passes...

Thanks again to all.

[Torquemada055]

I would jus tlike to say Thank You, to all of you who posted here as it has given me invaluable insight's in to what to look for and what to look at.
As a newbie it is just what I know I need before I pretend to know what I'm looking at.
Again a big Thanks to all of you for sharing.

Clay Sharps