German sub-machine gun ammo

Lonnie Zimmerman · 01-08-2002, 01:32 AM

Do any of you know if such a thing exists? I always read about not using it in a Luger or P-38 but I have never read a thing about it in any of my books-and I have a LOT of books.

Lonnie

Orv Reichert · 01-08-2002, 03:01 AM

A government would have to be nuts to make up ammo in two different loadings...one of which could blow up some of their guns?

I keep hearing this...."Gee, he shot SMG ammo in it and it blew up!" In the UK, they refused to make sub-sonic ammo for the Stens----because, they said, if they did, they would get the wrong ammo to the wrong guns. So, to avoid this predictable disaster, they punched holes [36] into the SMG barrels on the silenced guns to make all ammo sub-sonic in that gun!

Has anyone seen any 9x19 ammo marked 'for SMG only".. or 'Not For Use in Pistols"??? I have not.

Now...I am sure there is an exception for every rule..but, let's hear about them...respond you guys?

Some years ago, I bought some cheap Egyptian 9x19. It was touted as 'SMG ammo'. It chrono'd at 1200 ft/sec. Certainly not too hot for a good pistol?

Orv Reichert

01-08-2002, 03:36 AM

I was wondering about this too. Do you think that the P.38 slides that you see cracked are from hot loads or metal fatigue? I have seen boxes of 9mm from WW2 but I donÃ¢??t recall anything on them differentiating from pistol or smg. Just wondering JR.

01-08-2002, 06:17 AM

Well, now memory fades.

I don't have any of the boxes left, but I had some that I was told was WW2 SMG ammo and it had a steel bullet. Made some rifeling on the bullet head when I retrieved the bullets, but not much, shot hard, good kick to it and punched through most items I shot at.

I'd like to have some more, but would be a bit more leery than when I was a "kid" shooting it through my S&W 39.

Ed

Thor · 01-08-2002, 07:45 AM

My dad was in the infantry in WWII and told me that the SMG ammo was hotter and marked with a black tip. I have no reason to believe he made this up. Thor

01-08-2002, 11:06 AM

Orv, I have several boxes of WWII (1942 I think) German 9mm that is marked "Nur fur MP" which means of course "only for machine pistol". I don't really know first hand if this is too "hot" for Lugers/P38 and your comment about universal use makes a lot of sense. I can only guess that due to the relativly small amount of pistol ammo that a soldier would expend (compared to a machine pistol bearer) there was an attempt to provide non-MP (hot loads)for pistols, but in a pinch the MP 9mm would work.

Steve Lempitski · 01-08-2002, 01:36 PM

01-08-2002, 01:36 PM

All is not always as it seems. I bought some WWII German 6.5 Dutch ammo marked "nur fur MG" from Dolf Goldsmith. I would have assumed that these were hot loads, but Dolf told me they were in fact weak loads made for Dutch Lewis guns. Apparently the regular Dutch 6.5 rifle ammo did not function properly in Lewis guns. It just goes to show there is an exception to every rule.

Then on the other extreme, there is the Czech 7.62x25 subgun ammo that works fine in a CZ52 pistol but will damage a C96 Broomhandle. The stuff I have is in stripper clips, 8 round if I remember correctly.

None of which has anything to do with Lugers . . . Sorry.

Steve Lempitski · 01-08-2002, 01:38 PM

Orv Reichert · 01-08-2002, 02:02 PM

almost all the cracked slides I have seen were on SVW45-46 French made guns or the Postwar slides. Probably due to a failure in the heat treating process?

In the postwar years, they changed the dimensions of the slide to address this problem.

01-08-2002, 03:01 PM

Dear Cracked - many moons ago I cracked the slide of my brand-new commercial P38, right out of the box, shooting British service 9mm Para ammunition. The stuff was ordinary issue Mk2Z. It was designed to work in our issue Browning SLP, better known as the Browning Hi-power or P.35 as well as our then standard sub-machine gun, the Sterling. This weapon fired from a closing bolt, called the advanced firing pin ignition system, and extracted using part of the spent gases of propulsion, so ammunition needed to be a mite stiff to make it work properly without 'double tapping'. This meant that our service pistols had to be proofed to 13.5 tons per square inch, rather than the usual 9.5 tpi of the civilian 9mm Para weapons. Anyways, it certainly disconnected by poor old/new Walther, and I eventually got a new one from the dealer, after all the paper work had been redone, a little matter of eight months, I seem to remember.

Lonnie Zimmerman · 01-08-2002, 03:53 PM

Steve; correct!

Lonnie

jim haycraft · 01-08-2002, 04:07 PM

There are references in the literature (early editions of W.H.B. Smith's books, as well as Datig's) to 9mm "black" loads, for use in submachine guns, giving muzzle velocities up around 1500 fps. with correspondingly higher chamber pressures. There is no evidence that any failures occurred when these cartridges were used in P08s or P38s, however it was recommended that they not be used! I have one "black" 9mm cartridge in my collection. The case is coated with a blackish lacquer wash (it could be steel, with a protective anti-rust coating, I suppose), but the bullet is definitely black or close to it and may be a sintered iron compound. The base of the cartridge case has the following markings, spaced 90Ã?Â° apart: 12, 43, ch, St* (or a tiny "+"). The primer appears to be of conventional type and color.

Jim Haycraft

Kyrie · 01-08-2002, 07:06 PM

Hi Lonnie,

A Ã¢??sub-machinegunÃ¢?Â is nothing more than a fully automatic weapon that fires a pistol cartridge. By and large, there is no such thing as Ã¢??sub-machinegun ammunition" and sub-machineguns fire standard pistol ammunition. Apparently people see the higher muzzle velocities produced by sub-machineguns and wrongly attribute these velocities to higher chamber pressures. In reality the higher muzzle velocities are due to the longer barrels of sub-machineguns.

There are some exceptions to this general rule.

In WWII the German ran short of critical materials (like lead and cartridge casing brass) and made 9 mm Luger ammunition with steel cases and sintered steel bullets. These cartridges did not function well in the P.08 and the ammunition was issued in boxes labeled Ã¢??For sub-machinegun onlyÃ¢?Â and/or Ã¢??Not for use in P.08.Ã¢?Â

Another exception was a lot of 9x19 ammunition made in Israel that had a cartridge LOA that was too long for use in most pistols. It isnÃ¢??t known why the ammunition was made - it just appeared on the surplus market. Rumor has it that this ammunition was made for use in the Uzi sub-machinegun but that may be nothing more than rumor. My best guess is it was a manufacturing error, the ammunition was rejected by the Israeli government, and the manufacturer dumped it on the surplus market.

Yes another exception was a lot of 9x19 ammunition manufactured specifically for use in the artic. In temperate or tropical climates this ammunition produced chamber pressure that were dangerous in *any* firearm. This ammunition was also dumped on the surplus market, but ATF and Customs were able to keep it out of this country.

The bottom line to all of this is two-fold. Firstly, there is really no such thing as Ã¢??sub-machinegun ammunitionÃ¢?Â. The second is milsurp ammunition can be very risky.

Hope this helps!

Best regards,

Kyrie

01-08-2002, 08:51 PM

The Brits proofed Lugers to 15 tons per square inch and so marked the accepted pistols.

schwob · 01-08-2002, 11:13 PM

To answer your question, Some years ago Winchester made 9mm ammo which states on the box, to be used in SMGs only.

schwob · 01-08-2002, 11:43 PM

Please go to the below web page and have a look at a box of ammo I own. The box is covered in a plastic wrap (mine) and is unopened. I've never fired any of these, I don't have an SMG, and would think of putting any of these into a Luger. I have no info on when this was made. there are markings on one side of the box, but very hard to read. Hope this helps.

http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/9mm.JPG

Johnny Peppers · 01-09-2002, 12:16 AM

The Navy Seals also cracked and broke several slides on the M9 pistol by shooting "over pressure" ammunition in them. The only weapon they had that would safely fire the "over pressure" ammunition was their H&K MP5.

01-09-2002, 06:26 AM

I just went to get my SVW45 P-38 "Gray Ghost" out to

prep for shooting tomarrow.

The slide is cracked.

Idaho has been hard on my 9mms!

I had a Star Mdl B break on the first day I was up here, my LP-08 cracked the upper receiver last fall, and now

my P-38.

I had not heard of a problem with cracked P-38 slides till

I read the above post, I maybe looked a little closer than I might have otherwise.

Anybody know if P-38's just break, or do they Kaboom?

Mike Halbrook

01-09-2002, 07:59 AM

Kyrie,

Right On with your comments!

A sub machine gun normally is a non locked breech and if high pressure ammo is used, it would have to be build special to take this type High Pressure Ammo. Why would anyone make a sub gun to take special ammo? This would be a real problem in the field if you ran out of the Special ammo and had to use what was available. it just does not make sense.

Now, with that said, yes, there may have been some few exceptions for special operations, but I feel this would have been very limited. Just my opinion.

Marvin C.

01-08-2002, 01:32 AM	#1
Lonnie Zimmerman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 523 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	German sub-machine gun ammo Do any of you know if such a thing exists? I always read about not using it in a Luger or P-38 but I have never read a thing about it in any of my books-and I have a LOT of books. Lonnie

01-08-2002, 03:01 AM	#2
Orv Reichert RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SW Washington State Posts: 339 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	sub-machine gun ammo A government would have to be nuts to make up ammo in two different loadings...one of which could blow up some of their guns? I keep hearing this...."Gee, he shot SMG ammo in it and it blew up!" In the UK, they refused to make sub-sonic ammo for the Stens----because, they said, if they did, they would get the wrong ammo to the wrong guns. So, to avoid this predictable disaster, they punched holes [36] into the SMG barrels on the silenced guns to make all ammo sub-sonic in that gun! Has anyone seen any 9x19 ammo marked 'for SMG only".. or 'Not For Use in Pistols"??? I have not. Now...I am sure there is an exception for every rule..but, let's hear about them...respond you guys? Some years ago, I bought some cheap Egyptian 9x19. It was touted as 'SMG ammo'. It chrono'd at 1200 ft/sec. Certainly not too hot for a good pistol? Orv Reichert

01-08-2002, 03:36 AM	#3
JR Guest Posts: n/a	Cracked P38 Slides I was wondering about this too. Do you think that the P.38 slides that you see cracked are from hot loads or metal fatigue? I have seen boxes of 9mm from WW2 but I donÃ¢??t recall anything on them differentiating from pistol or smg. Just wondering JR.

01-08-2002, 06:17 AM	#4
66mustang Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Cracked P38 Slides Well, now memory fades. I don't have any of the boxes left, but I had some that I was told was WW2 SMG ammo and it had a steel bullet. Made some rifeling on the bullet head when I retrieved the bullets, but not much, shot hard, good kick to it and punched through most items I shot at. I'd like to have some more, but would be a bit more leery than when I was a "kid" shooting it through my S&W 39. Ed

01-08-2002, 07:45 AM	#5
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Re: Cracked P38 Slides My dad was in the infantry in WWII and told me that the SMG ammo was hotter and marked with a black tip. I have no reason to believe he made this up. Thor

01-08-2002, 11:06 AM	#6
BCC Guest Posts: n/a	Answer to Orv Orv, I have several boxes of WWII (1942 I think) German 9mm that is marked "Nur fur MP" which means of course "only for machine pistol". I don't really know first hand if this is too "hot" for Lugers/P38 and your comment about universal use makes a lot of sense. I can only guess that due to the relativly small amount of pistol ammo that a soldier would expend (compared to a machine pistol bearer) there was an attempt to provide non-MP (hot loads)for pistols, but in a pinch the MP 9mm would work.

01-08-2002, 01:36 PM	#7
Steve Lempitski User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Old Cape Cod Posts: 238 Thanks: 1 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	Re: Answer to Orv (EOM)

01-08-2002, 01:36 PM	#8
Bill Utterback Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Answer to Orv All is not always as it seems. I bought some WWII German 6.5 Dutch ammo marked "nur fur MG" from Dolf Goldsmith. I would have assumed that these were hot loads, but Dolf told me they were in fact weak loads made for Dutch Lewis guns. Apparently the regular Dutch 6.5 rifle ammo did not function properly in Lewis guns. It just goes to show there is an exception to every rule. Then on the other extreme, there is the Czech 7.62x25 subgun ammo that works fine in a CZ52 pistol but will damage a C96 Broomhandle. The stuff I have is in stripper clips, 8 round if I remember correctly. None of which has anything to do with Lugers . . . Sorry.

01-08-2002, 01:38 PM	#9
Steve Lempitski User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Old Cape Cod Posts: 238 Thanks: 1 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	I thought black tip ammo was steel core armor piercing. (EOM)

01-08-2002, 02:02 PM	#10
Orv Reichert RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SW Washington State Posts: 339 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	CRACKED SLIDES almost all the cracked slides I have seen were on SVW45-46 French made guns or the Postwar slides. Probably due to a failure in the heat treating process? In the postwar years, they changed the dimensions of the slide to address this problem.

01-08-2002, 03:01 PM	#11
Terry A de C Foley Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Cracked P38 Slides Dear Cracked - many moons ago I cracked the slide of my brand-new commercial P38, right out of the box, shooting British service 9mm Para ammunition. The stuff was ordinary issue Mk2Z. It was designed to work in our issue Browning SLP, better known as the Browning Hi-power or P.35 as well as our then standard sub-machine gun, the Sterling. This weapon fired from a closing bolt, called the advanced firing pin ignition system, and extracted using part of the spent gases of propulsion, so ammunition needed to be a mite stiff to make it work properly without 'double tapping'. This meant that our service pistols had to be proofed to 13.5 tons per square inch, rather than the usual 9.5 tpi of the civilian 9mm Para weapons. Anyways, it certainly disconnected by poor old/new Walther, and I eventually got a new one from the dealer, after all the paper work had been redone, a little matter of eight months, I seem to remember.

01-08-2002, 03:53 PM	#12
Lonnie Zimmerman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 523 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: I thought black tip ammo was steel core armor piercing. Steve; correct! Lonnie

01-08-2002, 04:07 PM	#13
jim haycraft User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 20 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: sub-machine gun ammo There are references in the literature (early editions of W.H.B. Smith's books, as well as Datig's) to 9mm "black" loads, for use in submachine guns, giving muzzle velocities up around 1500 fps. with correspondingly higher chamber pressures. There is no evidence that any failures occurred when these cartridges were used in P08s or P38s, however it was recommended that they not be used! I have one "black" 9mm cartridge in my collection. The case is coated with a blackish lacquer wash (it could be steel, with a protective anti-rust coating, I suppose), but the bullet is definitely black or close to it and may be a sintered iron compound. The base of the cartridge case has the following markings, spaced 90Ã?Â° apart: 12, 43, ch, St* (or a tiny "+"). The primer appears to be of conventional type and color. Jim Haycraft

01-08-2002, 07:06 PM	#14
Kyrie User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 757 Thanks: 0 Thanked 212 Times in 101 Posts	Re: German sub-machine gun ammo Hi Lonnie, A Ã¢??sub-machinegunÃ¢?Â is nothing more than a fully automatic weapon that fires a pistol cartridge. By and large, there is no such thing as Ã¢??sub-machinegun ammunition" and sub-machineguns fire standard pistol ammunition. Apparently people see the higher muzzle velocities produced by sub-machineguns and wrongly attribute these velocities to higher chamber pressures. In reality the higher muzzle velocities are due to the longer barrels of sub-machineguns. There are some exceptions to this general rule. In WWII the German ran short of critical materials (like lead and cartridge casing brass) and made 9 mm Luger ammunition with steel cases and sintered steel bullets. These cartridges did not function well in the P.08 and the ammunition was issued in boxes labeled Ã¢??For sub-machinegun onlyÃ¢?Â and/or Ã¢??Not for use in P.08.Ã¢?Â Another exception was a lot of 9x19 ammunition made in Israel that had a cartridge LOA that was too long for use in most pistols. It isnÃ¢??t known why the ammunition was made - it just appeared on the surplus market. Rumor has it that this ammunition was made for use in the Uzi sub-machinegun but that may be nothing more than rumor. My best guess is it was a manufacturing error, the ammunition was rejected by the Israeli government, and the manufacturer dumped it on the surplus market. Yes another exception was a lot of 9x19 ammunition manufactured specifically for use in the artic. In temperate or tropical climates this ammunition produced chamber pressure that were dangerous in any firearm. This ammunition was also dumped on the surplus market, but ATF and Customs were able to keep it out of this country. The bottom line to all of this is two-fold. Firstly, there is really no such thing as Ã¢??sub-machinegun ammunitionÃ¢?Â. The second is milsurp ammunition can be very risky. Hope this helps! Best regards, Kyrie

01-08-2002, 08:51 PM	#15
REB Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Cracked P38 Slides The Brits proofed Lugers to 15 tons per square inch and so marked the accepted pistols.

01-08-2002, 11:13 PM	#16
schwob RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Coast of Maine Posts: 273 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: sub-machine gun ammo To answer your question, Some years ago Winchester made 9mm ammo which states on the box, to be used in SMGs only.

01-08-2002, 11:43 PM	#17
schwob RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Coast of Maine Posts: 273 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: German sub-machine gun ammo Please go to the below web page and have a look at a box of ammo I own. The box is covered in a plastic wrap (mine) and is unopened. I've never fired any of these, I don't have an SMG, and would think of putting any of these into a Luger. I have no info on when this was made. there are markings on one side of the box, but very hard to read. Hope this helps. http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/9mm.JPG

01-09-2002, 12:16 AM	#18
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: German sub-machine gun ammo The Navy Seals also cracked and broke several slides on the M9 pistol by shooting "over pressure" ammunition in them. The only weapon they had that would safely fire the "over pressure" ammunition was their H&K MP5.

01-09-2002, 06:26 AM	#19
Mike E Halbrook Guest Posts: n/a	Jinx? I just went to get my SVW45 P-38 "Gray Ghost" out to prep for shooting tomarrow. The slide is cracked. Idaho has been hard on my 9mms! I had a Star Mdl B break on the first day I was up here, my LP-08 cracked the upper receiver last fall, and now my P-38. I had not heard of a problem with cracked P-38 slides till I read the above post, I maybe looked a little closer than I might have otherwise. Anybody know if P-38's just break, or do they Kaboom? Mike Halbrook

01-09-2002, 07:59 AM	#20
Marvin C. Guest Posts: n/a	Re: German sub-machine gun ammo Kyrie, Right On with your comments! A sub machine gun normally is a non locked breech and if high pressure ammo is used, it would have to be build special to take this type High Pressure Ammo. Why would anyone make a sub gun to take special ammo? This would be a real problem in the field if you ran out of the Special ammo and had to use what was available. it just does not make sense. Now, with that said, yes, there may have been some few exceptions for special operations, but I feel this would have been very limited. Just my opinion. Marvin C.