Help with info on my grandpas gun?

[Brittscr]

My grandpa was WW2 veteran very decorated. Story he always told me was that he killed a German officer and took this from him as a keepsake. Please see attached pictures , any information would be greatly helpful! Thanks in advance

[spripple33]

Hi Brittscr, welcome to the forum!

I am far from an expert but I think I can give you some info. You grandfather brought back the most coveted souvenir of both world wars. It's a great piece of history and having the family connection makes it that much more special.
The last Lugers with the DWM logo on the toggle were made between the world wars, in the Weimar or early Nazi era by DWM or by Mauser using some DWM parts. I think the markings on the front of the grip may be police unit markings, possibly from Dusseldorf. It seems to follow the Prussian police marking instructions of 1922 pretty closely.
I hope this helps. I may be wrong about the unit marking on the grip. Far more knowledgeable members will probably be able to give you more accurate information.
-Jason

[Brittscr]

Thank you Jason for the info and it is greatly appreciated. I haven’t been able to sift through the myriad of Luger info online well enough to narrow it down so what you told me is very helpful , thanks !

[lugerholsterrepair]

Chad, a very nice example...Looks in great shape and is one of the very rare Luger's to have a unit mark. Did your Grandfather have any bring back papers with it?

[Edward Tinker]

It is a police luger, not sure why no sear or mag safety, but its for

Schutzpolizei Düsseldorf weapon Number xxx

[Karl]

The "7" in the visible serialized parts is much larger than the other numbers. Also the serial number on the receiver appears to be stamped over something else, two marks, and the left one looks to me like it might be a crown / M. Would it be possible to get a sharper photo?

KFS

[Mac Cat]

It looks like Crown/N to me, between the 3 and 4 on the frame serial number.
I can't make out what was under the 7.
It's also odd the barrel looks so perfect - no holster rash, even at the far end.

Could it be an early commercial pistol transferred to a police unit ?

[Doubs]

Originally Posted by Mac Cat

Could it be an early commercial pistol transferred to a police unit ?

It absolutely was a commercial pressed into service by the police. The vertical C/N on the receiver, the blank undated chamber and the locking bolt & side plate serial numbered on the underside all point to a commercial.

There's a good chance that the barrel was replaced. All commercials Lugers with an alphabet suffix letter made after WW1 were .30 caliber and the suffix letter was also stamped on the barrel. If the serial number on the frame has a suffix letter then it's almost certain that the barrel was replaced by one in 9mm. Page 515 of Gortz & Sturgess state that the crown/G under the serial number on the barrel is a police inspection stamp. The significance of the small eagle above the serial number on the barrel is unknown.

[spripple33]

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

It is a police luger, not sure why no sear or mag safety, but its for

Schutzpolizei Düsseldorf weapon Number xxx

The lack of the sear safety or a rivet hole was part of why I was unsure if it was a police gun... Thanks for confirmation!

[spangy]

To narrow things down or perhaps add confusion, in Don Maus's book, 'History Writ in Steel German Police Markings 1900-1936' under the heading of New Insights,

"d. Recent information from Klaus Merzbach has confirmed that S.D.IV was Duisburg-Hamborn."

Don believed that the Type 3 markings S.D. I, II, III, IV and V represented the large Schupo commands in Essen, Wuppertal, Düsseldorf, Duisburg-Hamborn and Oberhausen, respectively.

The Duisburg-Hamborn district is merely 35.3 km north of the Düsseldorf district however.

[mrerick]

Chad, welcome to the forum.

I hope the information provided is helpful, particularly on the police unit marking.

The Luger was reworked at some point. The serial numbers on the receiver overstamped originals when the receiver cannon and toggle train was wedded to the frame and the barrel work done. It's likely work done within a police arsenal to recycle a commercial DWM into police service. The Crown/N proof indicates commercial proofing, and it is, of course, lacking military contract inspection acceptance markings.

Many soldiers talk about confiscating Lugers from "German Officers", but this is not very common. Officers typically carried less bulky firearms like the Mauser M1914 pocket pistol or the Walther PP. Lugers were carried by a wide range of soldiers. Many of these were personal purchase weapons.

This one is a police Luger, so most likely confiscated when Allied armies took control of civil authority in German cities and regions.

Is there a record of your Grandfather's service when moving within Germany that would put him into the Dusseldorf region?

[DonVoigt]

Brittscr,

According to stories and what we read:
All German soldiers were "officers", and
all Japanese soldiers were "snipers".

Such monikers make for better stories.

You have a good example of a police luger, and knowing it was your Grandfather's makes it
very special- matters not from whom he acquired it- or how. JMHO

As to why no "extra" safeties; pistols issued to the German "barracked" police were not modified with additional safeties- Ed knows this as he wrote the book!
Welcome and enjoy the pistol.

[HerrKaiser]

Maybe he did take it from an officer...perhaps he just forgot to mention “police” in front of it.

In all seriousness, it is a nice looking police gun and the family provenance only makes it even more special.

[Doubs]

My neighbor growing up was a veteran of WW2, Company E, 194th Glider Infantry Regiment, 17th Airborne Division. He participated in "Operation Varsity", the assault across the Rhine River. Their LZ was near the city of Wessel.

Long story short, his squad captured a group of German soldiers that were occupying a house on the end of a bridge over a canal. He took a J. P. Sauer & Sohn model 38H pistol and holster from one of them. Was the German soldier an officer? Maybe.... but maybe not. He showed the pistol and holster to me years ago and told me the full story of how he got it but I honestly don't recall if he said the previous owner who was captured alive was an officer or not.

I doubt that it matters much to his oldest son who now owns it and the capture papers.

[Kiwi]

Could be anyone found in an office is an office'er

[gunbugs]

With the Germans, usually as you went up in rank, the pistols got smaller. "Officers" didn't want to carry a heavy gun. Many GI's thought a German was an "Officer" because the Huns wore their Medals/Decorations on their combat uniforms, and most German ranks were hard to distinguish, compared to Allied ranks. (Obersturmbannfuhrer?Hauptbereitschaftsleiter?)Plus, of course, it makes a better story than "I took it off a big pile of surrendered/captured weapons", not very exciting. But we have a number of photos of heaps of captured weapons with GI's/Tommies rooting through them. In some cases, they have multiple pistols. (That must have been fun for a guy that liked guns.)

[ithacaartist]

Originally Posted by gunbugs

"I took it off a big pile of surrendered/captured weapons", not very exciting.

Everything's relative, I guess. who among us would NOT be excited by access to a pile of captured Lugers?

[mrerick]

After visiting some long gone relatives, I think I know where my first time machine "trips" would be taking me... and it would involve " a big pile of surrendered.captured weapons"... as well as some conversations in Oberndorf, Erfurt, Suhl and Charlottenburg.