Reworks, and the changes in how they are regarded

[Kyrie]

Hi Folks!


I donâ??t know how many people caught this in the thread below, but BCC made a very interesting observation, in the form of a question. This was:


â??...I thought that you had an outstanding write up on your VOPO 1936 rework and wonder if you agree with me (please don't feel compelled) that such offical government/military ordered reworks have a "legitimate" place in a collection, this would of course include WWII German reworks, and others....â?�


The answer is, â??Yes sir, I do - but I didnâ??t always.â?�


This answer takes a little history, but not a history of Lugers. Rather itâ??s a history of Luger collecting here in the US. Luger collecting today is so different from Luger collecting forty odd years ago itâ??s hard to know where to begin, and how to explain how collecting (and the collecting market!) has changed.


In retrospect itâ??s hard to believe how little we knew back in the â??50â??s and â??60â??s. Remember that Fred Datigâ??s book â??The Luger Pistolâ?� wasnâ??t first published until 1955, Harry E. Jones â??Luger Variationsâ?� wasnâ??t published until 1959, and Charles Kenyonâ??s â??Lugers at Randomâ?� wouldnâ??t appear until the 1960â??s!


Forty years ago people wanted completely factory original, unaltered, Lugers. Unit marked Great War Lugers were viewed as â??alteredâ?� and of interest to shooters only. East German VoPo reworks were almost unknown and the few examples in the US were viewed as reworked trash. 1920 Commercials were also hard to sell as anything other than shooters.


Iâ??ve seen this change, and I think the change is due to the vast increase in information concerning Luger we have experienced in the last four or five decades. Forty years ago unit markings might as well have been written in Sanskrit or Egyptian hieroglyphics so far as most collectors were concerned. We didnâ??t know what they meant, so they had no value to us. Since then we have had volume after volume published on unit markings and now we *can* read a great many of the unit markings. The result of this is the pistols have come alive - we can trace where they went and the battles at which they were present. Unit markings are no longer a liability on a Luger and generally do not have a detrimental effect on a Lugerâ??s value. In some cases Luger collectors will even pay a premium for Lugers with specific unit markings.


We have seen something similar happen with VoPo Lugers, and this change began when we began to be able to recognize the VoPo markings as unit markings. Today the VoPo Lugers are a recognizable and recognized variation, and a VoPo Luger will generally sell for almost as much as the same variation Luger without VoPo markings. There are even at least a few Luger collectors that specialize in VoPo Lugers!


1920 Commercial Lugers are also now a recognized Luger variation, but they still tend to lag behind other variations in value (unless they are Stoeger marked, marked Safe and Loaded, or something else that sets them apart from the run-of-the-mill a 1920 Commercial). I, personally, think this lag is due to the general lack of detailed information concerning the 1920 Commercials. These pistols are now at the center of a great controversy. On one side of this debate are the more traditional folks who hold the 1920 Commercials were made up from Great War pistols and left over parts during the period of about 1918 to 1923. On the other side are those folks who hold these pistols were not produced until the late 1920â??s (see Jan Stillâ??s wonderful â??Weimar and Early Naziâ?� for more on this complex issue). I think if we can ever get these pistols sorted out as to when, where, why, and how they were made they will increase in both interest and demand (and hence value as well).


All of this is why I answered you question, â??Yes sir, I do - but I didnâ??t always.â?� Things have changed over the years!


Moreover, we have recently seen two distinct groups of Lugers come into the country. One of these groups is comprised of the so-called â??Russian Capture Lugersâ?�. These pieces are coming out of the various CIS and former Warsaw Pact countries, and seem to be composed of distinct sub-groups. A few are original, with no sign of reworking. Most have at least been hot salt blued, and have one or more replaced parts. A few seem to be composed entirely of randomly selected parts (real FrankenLugers).


The other group is composed of East German rework Lugers. There are a few VoPo Lugers mixed in with these, but the vast majority was never East German police pistols and was reworked with something else in mind.


At the moment both groups of Lugers are viewed as little more than shooters. But I think that may change in the ten or twenty years. If we begin to get the story behind the East German reworks (very possible with the Reunification) I think they may well become a newly recognized variation with a brisk collector demand driving their value upward.


The future of the â??Russian Capture Lugersâ?� is, I think, very murky. To become a recognized and sought after variation I believe we are going to need to be able to place them in a historical perspective and that includes when, where, why and for whom they were reworked. If that â??when, where, why, for whomâ?� turns out to be â??the 1990â??s, the importers warehouses, for hard currency, and US collectorsâ?� then itâ??s unlikely they will ever be desirable as anything other than shooters.


But time will tell. And who knows? I may yet live long enough to see what happens


Best regards,


Kyrie

Kyrie,

Thank you so much for the quality answer. I could not agree more. Luger collecting has changed and is still changing. I believe that you post on this subject and the one ( the fire ant hill that was kicked!) on matching-up Lugers has a valid central theme----Integrity. If a pistol is represented as Factory original...it should be just that not just "look as if it is". IF a pistol is a rework or even battlefield repaired it is still (in most cases) a valid legit collectable Luger and should be represented and preserved for what it is. Again you post was very well stated. BCC

[Kyrie]

Hi BCC,


I think you have pretty much expressed my views. Lugers that have been altered or repaired in some recognizable historical context (al la the Weimar Republic stamping of "1920" to indicate property of that government, the VoPo police property and unit markings, and so on) retain at least some collector interest (and hence collector value).


Integrity and a concern for future collectors are also important. There is an old adage that says, "Do good when possible, or at the very least do no harm."


Just my $0.02 worth, offered entirely FWIW...


Best regards,


Kyrie

[bill m]

No offense intended, but I do not see anything historical about any of these "imports". They are captured weapons that have been ruined by being altered from their original issued condition. As far as collector value, I see nothing to indicate any such value. They are only popular because shooters are buying them, and that is because they are cheaper than buying a known collector variation, and shooters can say that they own a "Luger". As far as becoming more valuable, I doubt it, as that would only take place if a large segment of collectors found them to be a valuable addition to there collection, and I seriously doubt that will ever happen. Compared to the un-altered or actual Weimar or Nazi reworked guns, these are junk, and should never be considered in the same context.

[Jesse]

about three years ago these Lugers cost about $299 now some of them are going for $600+ I have always seen a vast history in these Lugers, thats my $.02

[Dean Dennis]

Bill, you can hate them all you want but there are two facts you can't dispute. 1. They are all "real" Lugers. 2. Even the very newest ones were made in the middle of the last century. The only difference between your Weimar or Nazi guns are a few markings. I think in the not too distant future you'll wish you'd bought everyone you could. No interest! What do you think is driving all this activity on these new forums?

[David Jackson]

Unfortunately, I think simple economics has a part in what

gets recognized too. While I agree in principle with those contributors to this thread that the recent imports are not particularly desireable for most of us there may be not much choice particularly for the new, and the young new, collector.

What I think of as a desireable piece in the world of Parabellum pistols costs, at minimum, around $2,000 (not that I own many of these at all) and I have not even seen crummy looking shooters priced lower than about $500 lately.

What that means is that people with limited budgets who are still interested in the Parabellum pistol now, with these imports, are able to enjoy the hobby too.

In this world where we, as gun fanciers, are beleagured from all sides, we might want to welcome new comers with open arms, and while we personally might not be interested in what they collect, as least have the good manners to keep quiet.

[Dok]

speaking for the shooter community... I do not have the funds (or maybe even the tenacity) to be a serious collector, but I appreciate the fine collectible, but at the same time, my Luger is still a Luger, and every bit as much a Luger as any Luger owned by Bill.


OK, so it doesn't have certain stamps, and it has other other stamps... IT'S STILL A LUGER. And I think it's great, and I love it every bit as much as if it had some "collector dreamt-up" pedigree. I think one of the things all collectors should be careful of is the "snobbery of the elite". Because your collectible is worth more than mine, somehow that makes mine "trash". I don't hold with that, I not only get to look at mine and hold it lovingly as do you, but I get to shoot mine, so in my books, I actually get more pleasure, because a Luger wasn't made to just be admired as a work of art (although it certainly is) it was made to shoot... something it does VERY well.

Kyrie & David J, Even though you both offer different points of view, I value them both.

For futher details on E.German VOPO markings the only referece that I know of at the present is Warren Buxton's "The P.38 Pistol" Volume 3 (available from me @$65 postpaid) which touches on these lugers and most of the P.38 info also applies. I also have in my collection a NEW PRODUCTION (less than 150 made) E. German Luger with N prefix serial numbers starting at N1000 and highest know is N1118. Interesting in that it was made without stock lug or lanyard loop and only a large Crown/N on center toggle link. I definately consider these rare variations of the future.

[Johnny Peppers]

Just as in the stock market, prices are market driven and not value driven. Take a look at the .com stocks for a good example. The prices on the recently imported Lugers are approaching the prices of original pistols. A 50% original specimen is a much better buy than a 100% dip blued rework as the rework actually has 0% original finish.

[bill m]

First off, I mean no disrespect to all you shooters. Secondly, I wasn't the one that started this thread about imports and reworks and was just commenting on the original message. This gets actually kinda funny, as when someone writes something that isn't in the agreement of the "shooters", he gets slammed. What makes this forum interesting is the different opinions and diverse beliefs. If you do not want a different opinion, then visit privately and do not ask the question on the forum. I'll stand by all my statements and still contend that there isn't much historical value to these imports, or collector value. If you want to collect them, then go for it, but not everyone thinks as highly of them as some of you do. Actually, I didn't say there was anything wrong with these imports, so you can "hold them and love them, and shoot them" all you want, as that is what they are, shooters. And I agree that they do get more people involved in a Luger due to their price and availability, again, because they are cheaper than a collector variation. But, they are still not in the same context as the unaltered variations, or the Weimar reworks or Nazi guns, in my very humble opinion.

Bill, I don't think anyone is upset about your difference of oppinion. I think what got them upset was your calling their prize possisions "junk"! What was lacking here was tact and respect! IMHO.

At the risk of sounding too academic I would like to questiuon some of the terms that we tend to use (including myself) maybe we should think more about what we are saying.

First the term "shooter" has come to mean "non-collector grade", well I contend that ALL Lugers were built to be shooters, why else would a soldier be issued and trained on their use?

Second, "non-historical", often used to describe the current group of re-worked imports, well I have a hard time seeing what is non-historical about a pistol that was contracted by the German Military in WWII and by merit of it's country of origin was captured in some of the most epic battles in world history, (by the way these lugers are about the only ones we can tie to Eastern Front use), and then collected and refinished to go into storage for arms aide to communists movements during the 45 year Cold War. These Lugers may not be a perfectly preserved representation of the WWII finish condition but they are like living history of the Soviet Union for the last half of the 20th century.

I am a collector of Lugers, but I also have a couple of the import marked Lugers which I purchased a couple of years ago. One of them is an all matching "G" date which was dip blued as normal for the recent imports. This pistol has been reworked by Ted back to original condition. It is stunning and looks as if it just came from the factory. I don't pretend that it is all original and I have never seen an original without any small blemishes to differentiate from a rework and an original. Ted is currently working on my second import; a Double Date Luger and will have it back into original condition soon. These Lugers were "dinked" with by the Russians or whoever and don't have the "original" appearance. The reworking of these pistols will not harm the current value and may add a little to them, but they are still reworks and will remain as such. These pistols still have a history to them that cannot be disputed and if they could talk would have a much better story than the real "collector" Lugers we have. This is the reason I do like the recent imports and they have a place in any collection and as a shooter also.


My "collector" pistols cost much more than the imports, but they are not anymore important from a historical aspect that the import marked pistols. There are many differening opinions about these pistols and I feel we should respect each others opnions. I rarely shoot my Lugers, but I would shoot the most expensive one I have if I wanted to. I would treat it very well and not shoot it a lot to maintain it's value. The reworked Lugers can be shot, taken care of, enjoyed and the value will not be hurt that much. I also feel that the value of the imports will continue to climb, but will never reach the value of the non imports, but again, they historically are just as important. This is just my feelings and I like them all except the obvious fakes!


Marvin

[Matt]

While they may not be prized collector's pieces, there certainly is not anything wrong with the recent imports because they make great shooters. I bought one for this purpose. Most of my friends are shooters and not collectors. As one said to me, "I don't buy anything to look at." I consider myself both, enjoying shooter and collector guns.

[BILL]

Where does the collector who collects only shooter grade pistols fit in? I find that one of the great things about the passion for Lugers is that it encompasses so many different facets and personality types. There are the beer guzzling blast away surplus ammo types all the way to the snooty champagne sipping 'curator' know it all types. As gun owners we all have a common enemy and, in our case, a common interest,..Lugers. From my knothole, no matter where you see yourself on that spectrum, you should always feel good about being involved with a phenomenal firearm and work together to secure our rights to own a Luger (in any condition).

Bill, you made a good point about "collecting" only the shooter grade Luger. This is still a collection to me regardless of condition. I really love the 99% condition pistols, but I try to collect the ones in the 93%+ condition. In this condition, they are classes as VG/Exc. condition, but still have enough wear to show they have been used. The pistols that are mint 99% are great, but have they ever been issued to a soldier, have they ever been in combat? I don't know, but I would rather have one that has been used than one that was taken from a desk drawer or a depot. Even the ones with 93% condition may have never been in combat, but at least I feel they have been carried by a soldier of the Reich. I feel that in the future, the East German reworks will be classed by themselves as another variation.


Just remember, regradless if they are shooter grade or collector grade, they all have a history that will not be repeated.


Marvin

[Matt]

You guys make good points, just because someone collects only "shooter" guns does not mean that they are any less of enthusiast. If you own more than one of any item, you are a collector by definition. Only time will tell if the post-war Luger reworks will be considered "collector guns." It is certainly possible. M1911 pistols and M1917 revolvers rebuilt between the World Wars are considered collector guns because these were used during World War II and are therefore correct for that era. And, as has been mentioned, original M1 rifles and carbines are rare, forcing most collectors to compromise and settle for a rifle that is "correct."