More Reworks, and the changes in how they are regarded

[Kyrie]

Hi Folks!


I've followed the thread with great interest and I think everyone has made some excellent points. Let me add some of my own thoughts, offered entirely FWIW...


Firstly I think it would be useful to distinguish between collector value and shooter value (this last sometimes called "utility value"). Just about any functional and safe firearm has some shooter value. "Shooter value" is the utility value of the firearm - what someone would pay just to have it to shoot. Collector value is value over and above shooter value. "Collector value" is what someone will pay to possess the firearm - not necessarily to shoot; just to have and hold.


We buy shooters for what they can be used for ("Look! A Luger I can take to the range and shoot!"); we buy collectors for what they are ("Look! A minty 1940 dated, 42 coded, Luger!").


Any functional and safe Luger can be used as a shooter. "Shooter grade" Lugers don't need to be matching, or have their original finish. Those things are secondary or don't matter at all to the fellow who wants a Luger to shoot. The man who wants a Luger to shoot generally doesn't much care which variation the Luger is - his question is "Does it work?"


Collectors, OTOH, want specific Lugers, and in original condition. To the collector, bore condition is secondary or doesn't matter at all - he is more concerned that the pistol match and have at *least* 60% original finish. Which variation a Luger may be is of primary consideration to the fellow who wants a collector grade Luger. A collector of Imperial Lugers won't pay a dime for a Third Reich Era Luger, because that's not what he collects. The collector's question is "Which variation is it and what condition is it in?"


See the difference in viewpoint?


These are the forces that drive the people who buy Lugers. They are also the forces that drive the Luger market, and Luger prices. There are much, much fewer collector grade Lugers than shooter grade Lugers. This has the effect of driving the price of a collector grade Luger higher (and usually much higher) than the price of a shooter grade Luger.


Collectors and shooters (the people, not the guns [smile]) have a hard time communicating. They have very different goals, speak a different language, value different things abut the pistols they pursue, and don't generally understand each other at all. Get a bunch of collectors and shooter together and get them talking and you'd think they hated each other. It's common for collectors to tell shooters, "You're crazy to buy that junk!" And it's equally common for shooters to tell collectors, "You have to have more money than brains to pay that for a Luger!"


But remember that collectors and shooters have different goals. What's happening here is not bad blood, but the great gulf that exists between collectors and shooters. The *collector* would "have to be crazy" to buy a mismatched, reblued, Luger because he has no use for that kind of Luger. Conversely, the *shooter* would "have to have more money than brains to pay" $1000 for a matched, 99% original blue Luger when he can get a shooter for half that. What's happening here is each type of Luger buyer is projecting the criteria he uses to buy Lugers on the other fellow. When this happens (as it all too frequently does) we end up talking at cross purposes and confirming our suspicions the other fellow is an idiot, crazy, or both


With all this in mind, look back over this thread and some of the things that were said. I think you may begin to see the thread in a different light


With all that said, here are some thoughts on specific comments in the thread...


I have to agree with Bill M., when he wrote, "As far as collector value, I see nothing to indicate any such value." regarding the recent imports. At this point in time these Lugers really don't have much interest for the collector or collector value. OTOH, I'm less inclined to agree with Bill's comment, "As far as becoming more valuable, I doubt it,...". I'm not necessarily contradicting him and saying I think they will develop collector interest and value. I'm just saying my crystal ball gets cloudy the day after tomorrow and I can't see very far into the future [smile]. At one point in time I didn't think VoPo Luger would ever have more than just shooter value. Being wrong about that (and many other things!) taught me it's better to wait for and experience the future than it is to try and predict it. I'm much better at the former than the latter


Jessie, I have to respectfully and cordially wince at your comment, "about three years ago these Lugers cost about $299 now some of them are going for $600+" in regard to the recent imports. These are shooter grade Lugers, and are worth between about $300 and $400. What is driving the price of these above that range is folks don't know where to look for a good shooter and are paying too much as a result. It's always possible to pay too much for a Luger - and yes, that's experience taking [very wry smile]. Remind me to tell you sometime about the FrankenArtilleryLuger I paid almost $800 for - and am likely to pay another $200 to get it into a condition where it's at least safe to shoot. Not my finest moment...


Tom Heller's comment, "For futher details on E.German VOPO markings the only referece that I know of at the present is Warren Buxton's "The P.38 Pistol" Volume 3 (available from me @$65 postpaid)" is a truly excellent one. The (at present) three volume set of Warren Buxton's work on the P.38 is a gold mine of information. It's probably not something the Luger shooter needs, or would find very interesting - at least not a $65 a volume! OTOH, for the collector of VoPo Lugers, Volume three is must. Tom has copies available, it's available from IDSA Books (937-773-4203) at about $67.50, or can be purchased directly from the author at ucross@roadrunner.com.


Anyway, I'm sorry to have gone on so long and hope I've not bored too many people to tears!


Best regards,


Kyrie

[Joe]

I agree with Kyle's comment concerning the different language spoken by owners of shooters and collectables. Both owners have a different "feeling" for their guns. As a collector, I would never shoot one of my Lugers, only shoot an old mismatched one I bought in the late '60s. I would never risk a numbered piece of a matched Luger being damaged while shooting it. To me the German Lugers are the finest mass produced handgun ever produced and they will never be made again. I have also expeirenced paying "too much" for a collectable, but I get my enjoyment of just owning it.

[bill m]

hi Kyrie,

That was a nice post and I enjoyed it. I can now understand why "shooters" act like "idiots"! Smiling - Laughing -- And why they think I'm "snobbish" and "have no tact or respect", and "should keep quite". Laughing again! Again, good post, and you hit the nail on the head!

[Johnny Peppers]

Kyrie,

I am afraid that your are mistaken in your belief that there is a great gulf between collectors and shooters. I am just a casual Luger collector with limited knowledge as has been pointed out, but I am a serious 1911/1911A1 military pistol collector. I have 98/99% condition 1911 pistols that I have not and would not shoot. I have pre WWII 1911A1 military pistols that were oven blued just a few at the time that have almost a fire blue color. No reason to shoot those either. But I do have about a dozen post war commercials and customs including several National Match pistols that I shoot on a regular basis. There is certainly no great gulf there.

Maybe if the shooters and collectors are led to believe that a great gulf exists between them, maybe it will happen.

[BILL]

With respect to all the posts on this age old topic, and in light of all the wisdom and years of exposure to Lugers present here in this forum..still there are 'shooters' that are more desirable, fuctionality aside, than others. That means that there are people who will pay more for a more desirable shooter..and some of those more desirable shooters are in limited supply. Following basic economics, they will increase in value as the demand increases. Since there are a finite number available, they will become collector items. At that point..and it is probably already here, they are called collector Lugers. Is this an accurate observation or merely my opinion?

[Frank]

I have been reading the comments from the various members of the Forum and have been quiet, until now.


Each of us has their own ideas of what is important to them regarding the ownership of anything. Maybe thatâ??s why some people own Fords and others own Chevrolets.


Some of the members of this auspicious group own only Lugers that have been imported, have been repaired and reblued and donâ??t have the small parts with matching numbers. Others have Lugers that have been imported, have the original blue and do have matching serial numbers on all the parts.


So one may come to the conclusion that we all have Imported Blued Lugers.


I donâ??t think it is wrong for some of us to own a Shooter Imported Blued Luger, while others own a Collector Imported Blued Luger. Some of us actually own both kinds. It may be a matter of finances or preferences that lead to the purchase of either one or both of these types.


Each of us has idiosyncrasies regarding the Lugers we own. I have been told, by one Luger Collector, that the condition of the bore is not important, itâ??s the external appearance and the original matching serial numbers that count. Another â??Collectorâ?� has expressed his opinion that the condition of the pistol is important and it really doesnâ??t matter if the magazine has the same serial number or not, as long as it has the general type of magazine. And so on and so on.


The fact that we all have our own opinion is what makes the Forum interesting. I am just sorry that some of us are so opinionated they have closed their minds to the opinions of others. I think we should all be able to say what we want to, within reason, but letâ??s do it in a courteous, non-degrading manner. Nuff said.