Nice article on the Luger

[Aaron]

"Ruger Guntalk" just came out with a nice basic introduction to the Luger. See:
http://www.handgunsmag.com/rugers_gu...ugers_guntalk/

[Jim Keenan]

Not a bad article of a general nature. They don't say that the Ruger standard auto shape was a conscious imitation of the Luger, but it was. (The Ruger didn't need the swept back grip to work, the Luger did.)

An interesting note. Around 1949, a pistol was produced called the "Kruger". A scaled down look-alike of the Luger, it was actually a muzzle loader. Made of plastic, with a steel tube barrel liner, it fired a BB pellet by means of a toy cap. When yet another Luger imitation came on the market, a lot of people confused it with the little Kruger and wanted nothing to do with it. The latter gun was, of course, the Ruger Standard Model, one of the most successful pistol designs in history.

Jim

[Navy]

Lest I date my self, I had several Krugers when I was a kid. They were pretty cool back then and were used primarily for terrorizing old lady Eggart's scruffy cat which used to come around and get in the garbage cans. As I recall, the BB velocity and range was about half that of a Daisey Red Ryder, but waaay more cool. This was probably the genesis of my near 50 year love affair with the wonderful toggle top.

Tom A.

[Dwight Gruber]

I found this on ebay a while back. I had a Kruger when I was seven years old or so, didn't know until I saw this that it was anything more than a cap gun.

It was completely detailed, full-sized, and was absolutely the beginning of my Luger obsession.

--Dwight

[stymie]

Deja-vu...
I remember seeing a demo of one these cap firing, bb pistols as a kid at a toy store. IIRC, the breechblock lifted to insert a conventional rectangular *cap*... or maybe an extra if you could squeeze it in for more stopping power... lol. You would pull the cocking handle from the rear, like a cork gun. The bb would penetrate both sides of a heavy corrugated, cardboard box. I seem to recall that BATF reclassified these things as "firearms" & forced them off the market.

A similar situation came up with the fully-automatic Para-Ord MAC 10s that fired hard wax bullets/paint balls from plastic cases using a small pistol primer for propellant. BATF had a similar ruling regarding these as well.

[Jim Keenan]

Gee, I guess I violated the law if the Kruger was classified as a firearm. (Doesn't a "firearm" have to fired fixed ammunition?)

I never had one as a kid, but was fascinated by the ads. I saw one for $10 in a junk shop a while back and couldn't resist. It is pretty neat. (No NICS check, so they'll probably put me in jail.)

Jim

[Dwight Gruber]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by stymie:
<strong>Deja-vu...
IIRC, the breechblock lifted to insert a conventional rectangular *cap*... or maybe an extra if you could squeeze it in for more stopping power... lol.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Actually, I recall being able to stuff as many as -5- caps into this sucker.

Like I say, I thought it was just a cap gun, but multiple caps would put out one heckuva spurt of fire out the muzzle at night. With a pellet it might have been fair-to-middlin' dangerous.

--Dwight

[Ron Wood]

I also had a Kruger as a kid, and like Tom A, it probably had a lasting effect and contributed to my love of Lugers. If I ever find another Kruger, it will be added to the collection with fond memories.

[Johnny C. Kitchens]

Why do you (Jim Keenan) say that the Luger needed the swept back grip to work. I see no reason that the design couldn't made to work with a straight grip. Looks aside...

[stymie]

Johnny...
The Borshardt has a near vertical grip & is similar enough to a Luger to question why there might be a need for the angled grip. The Ruger on the other hand needs the angled mag to compensate for the stagger of the cartridge rim. The angled grip of the Luger seems to make it point quite naturally.

Jim...
Technically, the Kruger is a firearm by definition. You are correct that due to to its use of non-fixed ammunition, it enters into the exclusion of being an *antique firearm*, hence not controlled by the '68 GCA. However, this did not keep the manufacturer from being intimidated into removing it from the market by an *improper* ruling at the time. More recently, muzzleloading Knight Disk rifles that used a *modern* primer ignition came under similar scrutiny... albeit incorrectly.

[Jim Keenan]

Stymie and Johnny,

I re-read the definition in the law, and I see where ATF was coming from, although, IMHO, the whole thing was silly. I wonder if they will beat down my door and seize the Kruger.

As to the point about the grip angle, the ammo has nothing to do with it. Borchardt was a trained engineer, and his much-derided "clock spring" exerted its force vector almost straight down, a nearly ideal situation for closing a toggle mechanism.

But when good ol' Georg, who was a salesman, moved the spring to the grip and tried to use the basic Borchardt angle (the early experimental pistols), he found that the spring exerted its force vector too much in a forward direction. (Try this with your own forearm and fingers.)

So those guns had a problem locking back up in counter-recoil. It was not until Luger angled the grip backward that he got the spring to exert enough downward force to properly close the breech. The problem was eventually solved with the coil spring and the added lever, but the unintended consequence of Luger's problem solving was a superb grip.

To top things off, placing the spring in the grip meant the grip would be too wide if the Borchardt round was used, so Luger had to go to a shorter round and a narrower magazine. Which, coupled with the angled grip, presented feeding problems, but Luger was stuck with it. (I forget when Bayer invented aspirin, but I hope Georg had a good supply.)

Since then, of course, hundreds of gun types have fired both the 7.65mm and 9mm Parabellum rounds without any problems and without a steeply angled grip. The problem was unique to the Luger and its toggle mechanism.

I am sure Luger recognized that the grip was very nice, but that was secondary to getting the gun to work. After all, the idea was to sell guns, not turn out sculpture.

Jim

[fg42]

I also had a Kruger. I remember cutting a 12 guage shotgun shell in a form of reverse handloading to get the #6 shot to replentish my supply. The powder from the caps soon corroaded the chamber making the gun unshootable. Thanks Bob