hypothetical question

2flasargent · 08-19-2012, 09:47 PM

Just because there is a OMG throw it in the river crowd: Suppose I knew where there was a luger, good condition with absolutely no marking whatsoever. no numbers, no dates, no proofs, no obvious grind marks, good even finish all over, etc. Would that be terribly unusual, valuable, or of interest?? Story was that it was a vet bring back of very long ago, I'd guess a lunch box special. Should be legal since clearly made before serials were required? I've read the forum often, but first post. Appreciate the level of experience displayed.

Respects.

Edward Tinker · 08-19-2012, 09:58 PM

I have seen several sell and sold one, that had a number added to the rear, but no other proofs or acceptance, yes legal, unusual yes, makes value higher, not really, only to the right guy....

sheepherder · 08-19-2012, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2flasargent

Suppose I knew where there was a luger, good condition with absolutely no marking whatsoever.

No toggle inscription??? How would you tell who made it??? (Unless it has a hump)...

CavScoutEurope · 08-20-2012, 06:49 AM

If made before 1968 (?) it is legal not to have a serial number on the firearm.

CJS57 · 08-20-2012, 07:20 AM

Simpson just sold one that had all and only "42" replacement parts numbers. Even the frame. $2750 I liked it and would have purchased it!

Lugerdoc · 08-20-2012, 10:01 AM

In the past I've had a couple of completely unnumbered unbuffed WW2 lugers made up almost completely of S/42 or 42 marked spare parts, most likely from an armour's repair kit. TH

Vlim · 08-20-2012, 11:09 AM

Well, considering the fact that the pistol was made in Germany, which had strict proof laws, any luger pistol that left the factory via the front door had at least a serial number and a series of proof markings.

You sometimes see pistols that were quite expertly reworked to remove all proof and property markings, usually done to conceal the origin of the pistol. It happened in European countries following both WW1 and WW2 when guns got 'lost' and the new owners wouldn't want it to be traceable.

2flasargent · 08-20-2012, 08:39 PM

Until the flash showed it up I hadn't noticed that apparently proofs were ground before it was finished on the right side.

unspellable · 09-23-2012, 06:01 PM

I've seen a DWM supposed to be a lunch box special that had absolutely no markings (memory's a bit foggy, might have had DWM on the toggle) and was in the white

lugerholsterrepair · 09-23-2012, 06:27 PM

George..Welcom to the Forum! Is there a safety marking? Gisechert? Is the extractor marked on the left side? Geladen?
Are there worker stamps/markings on the interior of the pistol? Have you looked at the undersides of parts for hidden numbers? Are the grips marked with a serial or proof on the insides?

John Sabato · 09-24-2012, 12:15 PM

Please post a closeup clear focus photo of the front of the frame above the trigger guard and below the barrel...

I have seen several unmarked Lugers in my time... some had been altered for nefarious reasons, and a couple were righteous... one, formerly part of a long time friend's collection, was even equipped with what appeared to be a factory original removeable front sight band that was threaded on... The front sight was a spring-loaded part of the removal latch...and likely at one time had a matching silencer, but the friend never saw that piece... Wish I could have afforded that one... it was special.

2flasargent · 09-25-2012, 10:30 PM

The safety is marked Gisechert, and the extractor is Geladen. I found nothing else. I've field stripped it but not all the way down.

respects,

John Sabato · 09-26-2012, 09:42 AM

Please retake this photo in natural light, perhaps outside on an overcast day. Use macro-mode on your camera (if it is available) to get sharp focus on the closeup surfaces...

This photo that you posted is unfortuately not sharp enough.

Only the area I have shown is what I am looking for...

Olle · 09-26-2012, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CavScoutEurope

If made before 1968 (?) it is legal not to have a serial number on the firearm.

Does this go for all calibers and types of firearms? I have a .22 rifle without serial number, a single shot cheapo my father-in-law bought at Sears in the 50's or 60's. This was obviously legal enough back then, but I have seen comments saying that it was only .22s that could be sold without serial numbers.

alanint · 09-26-2012, 01:22 PM

Yes. If your state or local statutes require documentation at time of sale, you simply state "N/A" or "none" where it requires a serial number be filled in. There were thousands of firearms made by/for Sears Roebuck, Montgomery Ward, etc. prior to 1968 that never had serial numbers.
Firearms were not required to be serialed until the 1968 firearms law.

2flasargent · 09-26-2012, 10:03 PM

Try try again.
Thanks for the patience.

mrerick · 09-26-2012, 10:13 PM

From your latest pictures, I think it's possible to see that the serial number of the frame was removed at some point.

This front surface of the frame is normally completely flat.

Just below the level where the receiver rail rides in the frame, you can clearly see the edge (on both sides of the barrel) where the horizontal grinding starts. A part of the last digit may still be visible.

The barrel base also shows some tool marks and unusual contours, particularly visible near the witness mark...

Marc

alanint · 09-26-2012, 10:17 PM

I agree, numbers ground away on both Barrel and Frame.......

2flasargent · 09-27-2012, 08:01 PM

Interesting since the finish seems perfectly even, and it seemed like the tool marks looked the same in closeup as on the trigger guard.

alanint · 09-27-2012, 09:32 PM

Look at the bottom area of the last photo, where the upper receiver and the frame rails interact..That area of the frame should be perfectly flat and evenly radiused all the way to the trigger guard. As is obvious in the photo, this area of the frame has been ground down.

Now compare it to the exact same area on the other side of the frame, (upper part of photo). Notice that this side is ground down much less, making the grind fairly uneven? This would never have happened if this had been factory finishing.

08-19-2012, 09:47 PM	#1
2flasargent User Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	hypothetical question Just because there is a OMG throw it in the river crowd: Suppose I knew where there was a luger, good condition with absolutely no marking whatsoever. no numbers, no dates, no proofs, no obvious grind marks, good even finish all over, etc. Would that be terribly unusual, valuable, or of interest?? Story was that it was a vet bring back of very long ago, I'd guess a lunch box special. Should be legal since clearly made before serials were required? I've read the forum often, but first post. Appreciate the level of experience displayed. Respects.

08-20-2012, 10:01 AM	#6
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	In the past I've had a couple of completely unnumbered unbuffed WW2 lugers made up almost completely of S/42 or 42 marked spare parts, most likely from an armour's repair kit. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

09-23-2012, 06:27 PM	#10
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,760 Thanks: 4,848 Thanked 3,099 Times in 1,426 Posts	George..Welcom to the Forum! Is there a safety marking? Gisechert? Is the extractor marked on the left side? Geladen? Are there worker stamps/markings on the interior of the pistol? Have you looked at the undersides of parts for hidden numbers? Are the grips marked with a serial or proof on the insides? __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

09-24-2012, 12:15 PM	#11
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Please post a closeup clear focus photo of the front of the frame above the trigger guard and below the barrel... I have seen several unmarked Lugers in my time... some had been altered for nefarious reasons, and a couple were righteous... one, formerly part of a long time friend's collection, was even equipped with what appeared to be a factory original removeable front sight band that was threaded on... The front sight was a spring-loaded part of the removal latch...and likely at one time had a matching silencer, but the friend never saw that piece... Wish I could have afforded that one... it was special. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

09-26-2012, 09:42 AM	#13
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Sharper Focus Please Please retake this photo in natural light, perhaps outside on an overcast day. Use macro-mode on your camera (if it is available) to get sharp focus on the closeup surfaces... This photo that you posted is unfortuately not sharp enough. Only the area I have shown is what I am looking for... Attached Images __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

08-19-2012, 09:58 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	I have seen several sell and sold one, that had a number added to the rear, but no other proofs or acceptance, yes legal, unusual yes, makes value higher, not really, only to the right guy....

08-20-2012, 06:49 AM	#4
CavScoutEurope User Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 86 Thanks: 102 Thanked 15 Times in 14 Posts	If made before 1968 (?) it is legal not to have a serial number on the firearm.

08-20-2012, 07:20 AM	#5
CJS57 User Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 224 Thanks: 0 Thanked 81 Times in 41 Posts	Simpson just sold one that had all and only "42" replacement parts numbers. Even the frame. $2750 I liked it and would have purchased it!

08-20-2012, 11:09 AM	#7
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,032 Thanks: 1,018 Thanked 3,873 Times in 1,184 Posts	Well, considering the fact that the pistol was made in Germany, which had strict proof laws, any luger pistol that left the factory via the front door had at least a serial number and a series of proof markings. You sometimes see pistols that were quite expertly reworked to remove all proof and property markings, usually done to conceal the origin of the pistol. It happened in European countries following both WW1 and WW2 when guns got 'lost' and the new owners wouldn't want it to be traceable.

08-20-2012, 08:39 PM	#8
2flasargent User Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Until the flash showed it up I hadn't noticed that apparently proofs were ground before it was finished on the right side.

09-23-2012, 06:01 PM	#9
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 10 Posts	I've seen a DWM supposed to be a lunch box special that had absolutely no markings (memory's a bit foggy, might have had DWM on the toggle) and was in the white

09-25-2012, 10:30 PM	#12
2flasargent User Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The safety is marked Gisechert, and the extractor is Geladen. I found nothing else. I've field stripped it but not all the way down. respects,

09-26-2012, 01:22 PM	#15
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Yes. If your state or local statutes require documentation at time of sale, you simply state "N/A" or "none" where it requires a serial number be filled in. There were thousands of firearms made by/for Sears Roebuck, Montgomery Ward, etc. prior to 1968 that never had serial numbers. Firearms were not required to be serialed until the 1968 firearms law.

09-26-2012, 10:03 PM	#16
2flasargent User Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Try try again. Thanks for the patience.

09-26-2012, 10:13 PM	#17
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,370 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	From your latest pictures, I think it's possible to see that the serial number of the frame was removed at some point. This front surface of the frame is normally completely flat. Just below the level where the receiver rail rides in the frame, you can clearly see the edge (on both sides of the barrel) where the horizontal grinding starts. A part of the last digit may still be visible. The barrel base also shows some tool marks and unusual contours, particularly visible near the witness mark... Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

09-26-2012, 10:17 PM	#18
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	I agree, numbers ground away on both Barrel and Frame.......

09-27-2012, 08:01 PM	#19
2flasargent User Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Interesting since the finish seems perfectly even, and it seemed like the tool marks looked the same in closeup as on the trigger guard.

09-27-2012, 09:32 PM	#20
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Look at the bottom area of the last photo, where the upper receiver and the frame rails interact..That area of the frame should be perfectly flat and evenly radiused all the way to the trigger guard. As is obvious in the photo, this area of the frame has been ground down. Now compare it to the exact same area on the other side of the frame, (upper part of photo). Notice that this side is ground down much less, making the grind fairly uneven? This would never have happened if this had been factory finishing.