Witness Mark

A.Mifsin · 06-23-2009, 02:15 PM

I noticed that some Lugers' witness mark have different width, but they will be inline of each other.
Is this an indication that the barrel was removed or replaced?
Thanks.
Alf.

LugerVern · 06-23-2009, 05:58 PM

Alf

Witness marks can very controversial, in theory( by the book) a single blow was used to make them, the reality is, we see that more than one was used at times. Then you get marks that have shifted away from each other, one blow but no longer touching.

The picture you show is of two different tools being used, yet another variation that may mean a barrel replacement or nothing at all.

Use the Witness Mark in the overall evaluation of the gun, and not just by itself. Look for the signs of a barrel wrench being used, they often slip and mar the finish. This often shows up as a glossy sheen.

Look at the fonts on the barrel and frame, look at the sight band height.

I like to look for damage that appears on the frame or barrel but not on both, right where the two meet.

Well, some will most likely disagree with me, but that's how I see it.

Vern

Edward Tinker · 06-23-2009, 09:37 PM

If you do a search:

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=6537

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=7042

A.Mifsin · 06-24-2009, 01:21 PM

Thank You Vern, Thank You Edward Tinker.

Alf.

John Sabato · 06-24-2009, 04:23 PM

Also Alf... a fine article here:

http://www.lugerforum.com/WitnessMarkConclusions.htm

Heinz · 06-25-2009, 08:47 PM

Alf, it is hard to tell with that picture, but, if the barrel flange is slightly higher than the reciever, that double width but perfectly aligned phenomenon can occur in a single strike.

A.Mifsin · 06-26-2009, 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heinz

Alf, it is hard to tell with that picture, but, if the barrel flange is slightly higher than the reciever, that double width but perfectly aligned phenomenon can occur in a single strike.

Interesting point Heinz, thank You.
Alf.

sheepherder · 06-26-2009, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Sabato

Also Alf... a fine article here:

http://www.lugerforum.com/WitnessMarkConclusions.htm

It is a fine article, but I have at least one reservation...The article quotes August Weiss, a supervisor, detailing what went on "on the line"...having been there and done that, I can assure you that what is done to get a production piece finished and what the supervisor thinks was done are two different things...The production worked will find ways to do the job that are faster, quicker (not the same as faster), safer, cheaper, etc...and the overseer will not be aware of them...may even have the exactly wrong idea of what is being done...

I would definately take the word/description of the worker on the production line over a supervisor who is not involved with the actual work...

...Just my $.02...

And I have worked both sides of the argument...

A.Mifsin · 06-26-2009, 08:37 AM

""I would definately take the word/description of the worker on the production line over a supervisor who is not involved with the actual work...""

A valid point.

I was a manager in a worksop and there was always a worker who no matter how many rules you throw at him he always do it his own way.

Alf.

06-23-2009, 02:15 PM	#1
A.Mifsin User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Malta Posts: 570 Thanks: 74 Thanked 12 Times in 12 Posts	Witness Mark I noticed that some Lugers' witness mark have different width, but they will be inline of each other. Is this an indication that the barrel was removed or replaced? Thanks. Alf. Attached Images __________________ I prefer a Luger

06-24-2009, 01:21 PM	#4
A.Mifsin User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Malta Posts: 570 Thanks: 74 Thanked 12 Times in 12 Posts	Thank You Vern, Thank You Edward Tinker. Alf. __________________ I prefer a Luger

06-24-2009, 04:23 PM	#5
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Also Alf... a fine article here: http://www.lugerforum.com/WitnessMarkConclusions.htm __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

06-26-2009, 08:37 AM	#9
A.Mifsin User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Malta Posts: 570 Thanks: 74 Thanked 12 Times in 12 Posts	""I would definately take the word/description of the worker on the production line over a supervisor who is not involved with the actual work..."" A valid point. I was a manager in a worksop and there was always a worker who no matter how many rules you throw at him he always do it his own way. Alf. __________________ I prefer a Luger

06-23-2009, 05:58 PM	#2
LugerVern User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 563 Thanks: 1 Thanked 34 Times in 27 Posts	Alf Witness marks can very controversial, in theory( by the book) a single blow was used to make them, the reality is, we see that more than one was used at times. Then you get marks that have shifted away from each other, one blow but no longer touching. The picture you show is of two different tools being used, yet another variation that may mean a barrel replacement or nothing at all. Use the Witness Mark in the overall evaluation of the gun, and not just by itself. Look for the signs of a barrel wrench being used, they often slip and mar the finish. This often shows up as a glossy sheen. Look at the fonts on the barrel and frame, look at the sight band height. I like to look for damage that appears on the frame or barrel but not on both, right where the two meet. Well, some will most likely disagree with me, but that's how I see it. Vern

06-23-2009, 09:37 PM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	If you do a search: http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=6537 http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=7042

06-25-2009, 08:47 PM	#6
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 410 Times in 180 Posts	Alf, it is hard to tell with that picture, but, if the barrel flange is slightly higher than the reciever, that double width but perfectly aligned phenomenon can occur in a single strike.