"The Proverbial loading tool Question"

Stevie · 08-05-2003, 11:02 PM

I bought a box of gun-parts and hand tools at a yardsale this last weekend (mostly because I saw some Luger stuff mixed in). I got a set of original wood grips(crappy),A set of wood grips(nice,repro likely),take down lever and little spring-wire, and a loading tool. The loading tool is much thicker than my repro tool, unmarked, and the screwdriver tip is almost knife sharp and hollow ground. It's also about an 1/8" longer and more square cornered than my repro. What are the odds that it's an original tool?

Thanx, Stevie.

lugerholsterrepair · 08-06-2003, 03:44 AM

Stevie, Nil, Nada, No way. Thicker is not better. That's the main way to tell repro tools from originals, they are thicker. I believe it is Bender's book Luger Holsters and accessories that has a diagram for the proper thickness of original tools. If I can find it I will post later what it is and you can measure for yourself. Jerry Burney

Stevie · 08-06-2003, 05:18 AM

Probably the tools are the better part of my garage sale stuff, but I get excited over P08 leftovers. My brother has already forbidden me to get rid of any ancient tools or even older double barrel shotgun parts, until he gets to look at them. Any body need an unidentified Mauser rear sight; or an old, but brand new petrified recoil pad? How about a box of nothing but .22 cal. scope mount parts and screws? Some Lyman sight pieces, front and rear, anyone?

Stevie.

Edward Tinker · 08-06-2003, 06:21 AM

Stevie, nice finds tho!

Here is a picture and commentary from a friend of mine Bill Garrison, who helped me when I asked almost the same question last fall that I could repeat his sage advice:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Regarding your question; yes the totally reproduced tools aren't up to standards. I have posted a picture showing an original tool, on top, and two reproduced tools. Note the thickness differences and the detail on the edges. An original tool should measure 2.5 mm in thickness. This is according to military specs. The entire tool had to made to spec, the point of the bend on top, the width of the grooves on the back the length of the tool, etc. Over or under would be reject. The other two in the attached pic are oversize. The bottom one is 3mm thick. Also note the difference in the length of the material at the bend of the tool on the bottom. However, as troublesome as these total fakes are, they are not the scary aspect of all this.

One would think that something as simple as a loading tool shouldn't provide any mysteries but that isn't the case. They have been, and continue to be, faked, boosted, enhanced, what ever. Sarco has a decent total repro tool that is selling for $5.65 unmarked and $12.50 stamped with an E/63 acceptance stamp. It isn't a bad effort, wouldn't fool the knowledgeable, but if you want a tool to stick in your tool pouch, it serves the purpose. However, while some of these tools are totally bogus, others are original blank tools that have had bogus acceptance stamps applied . I have heard reports from credible sources and have seen pictures of crates of unissued WWII vintage blank tools that were purchased in Europe after the fall of the East Block and brought into the US. Figure: using stamps that are readily available (a year or two ago, sets of WWII German proofs and numbers were advertized in Shot Gun News, either as sets or individually) and you can turn an unmarked tool into a high grade $100+ E/135, E/2 Luft, Kreigs, etc., simply with the strike of a hammer.

So what is the answer? Usually, advice that a new collector doesn't want to hear. It takes time and looking at a lot of pictures and actual tools to get a feel for what is good and what isn't. And with that said, I am certain that there are tools out there that would fool me an most other collectors. I have approx 50 tools, mixed WWII and Imperial, that for various reasons, I feel are legit, however, there are a couple that, depending on my frame of mind, cause me to wonder. I have a half dozen or so bogus tools that I have picked up to use as a quid. A couple, I will admit, I bought thinking that they were legit.

My advice is not to pay over $50 for a tool unless you are certain of it's provenance and only then when you have done some research into the matter and gained a bit of knowledge into the field. If you wish to put your faith in a dealer, that is your choice.<hr /></blockquote>

Stevie · 08-06-2003, 07:56 AM

Shoot! I don't know. The only caliper I have on hand reads a thickness of 1.250", a repro tool I purchased new as a repro. tool measures .910". I dont't have a metric conversion capability right at the moment. None of your pics. represent the screwdriver tip style found on my new tool. I suspect it's an East German tool or possibly a late replacement tool. It is probably at least 30 years old( judging the junk I bought)or possibly 100 years old(judging some of the debris in my box); it may be worth thousands of dollars. Unfortunately its's probably not worth the $12 I spent to get it( and the P08 grip sets and couple of parts),still cool stuff! I will try to post some pictures.

Thanx, Stevie.

Stevie · 08-06-2003, 08:23 AM

My decimal points are in the wrong place
in my previous posts measurments! They should read .125" (newest tool) and .091"( repro tool I bought new)Yikes!I can't measure for squat.

Sorry, Stevie.

P.S. My newest Luger tool is not 1 and 1/4" thick.

Stevie · 08-06-2003, 05:54 PM

Fake!!! Egads, my new Luger tool is over 3mm in thickness. Looking at some original tools online, and Ed's above picture, shows to me that my tool is likely an aftermarket replacement. It does look nice and original, very close to proper shape, but thick and has an odd screwdriver tip.

Thanx guy's, Stevie.

Jim Keenan · 08-19-2003, 06:09 PM

I have one with no grooves and no markings at all, that measures 2.75mm in thickness. It looks pretty old, and has a sharp cornered, hollow-ground screwdriver point. Anyone's guess as to what it is. I bought it as a commercial tool, but paid so little ($15) that it doesn't matter as long as it works.

Jim

Jim

08-05-2003, 11:02 PM	#1
Stevie User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Ok. Posts: 212 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	"The Proverbial loading tool Question" I bought a box of gun-parts and hand tools at a yardsale this last weekend (mostly because I saw some Luger stuff mixed in). I got a set of original wood grips(crappy),A set of wood grips(nice,repro likely),take down lever and little spring-wire, and a loading tool. The loading tool is much thicker than my repro tool, unmarked, and the screwdriver tip is almost knife sharp and hollow ground. It's also about an 1/8" longer and more square cornered than my repro. What are the odds that it's an original tool? Thanx, Stevie.

08-06-2003, 03:44 AM	#2
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,760 Thanks: 4,848 Thanked 3,099 Times in 1,426 Posts	Stevie, Nil, Nada, No way. Thicker is not better. That's the main way to tell repro tools from originals, they are thicker. I believe it is Bender's book Luger Holsters and accessories that has a diagram for the proper thickness of original tools. If I can find it I will post later what it is and you can measure for yourself. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

08-06-2003, 06:21 AM	#4
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	Stevie, nice finds tho! Here is a picture and commentary from a friend of mine Bill Garrison, who helped me when I asked almost the same question last fall that I could repeat his sage advice: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Regarding your question; yes the totally reproduced tools aren't up to standards. I have posted a picture showing an original tool, on top, and two reproduced tools. Note the thickness differences and the detail on the edges. An original tool should measure 2.5 mm in thickness. This is according to military specs. The entire tool had to made to spec, the point of the bend on top, the width of the grooves on the back the length of the tool, etc. Over or under would be reject. The other two in the attached pic are oversize. The bottom one is 3mm thick. Also note the difference in the length of the material at the bend of the tool on the bottom. However, as troublesome as these total fakes are, they are not the scary aspect of all this. One would think that something as simple as a loading tool shouldn't provide any mysteries but that isn't the case. They have been, and continue to be, faked, boosted, enhanced, what ever. Sarco has a decent total repro tool that is selling for $5.65 unmarked and $12.50 stamped with an E/63 acceptance stamp. It isn't a bad effort, wouldn't fool the knowledgeable, but if you want a tool to stick in your tool pouch, it serves the purpose. However, while some of these tools are totally bogus, others are original blank tools that have had bogus acceptance stamps applied . I have heard reports from credible sources and have seen pictures of crates of unissued WWII vintage blank tools that were purchased in Europe after the fall of the East Block and brought into the US. Figure: using stamps that are readily available (a year or two ago, sets of WWII German proofs and numbers were advertized in Shot Gun News, either as sets or individually) and you can turn an unmarked tool into a high grade $100+ E/135, E/2 Luft, Kreigs, etc., simply with the strike of a hammer. So what is the answer? Usually, advice that a new collector doesn't want to hear. It takes time and looking at a lot of pictures and actual tools to get a feel for what is good and what isn't. And with that said, I am certain that there are tools out there that would fool me an most other collectors. I have approx 50 tools, mixed WWII and Imperial, that for various reasons, I feel are legit, however, there are a couple that, depending on my frame of mind, cause me to wonder. I have a half dozen or so bogus tools that I have picked up to use as a quid. A couple, I will admit, I bought thinking that they were legit. My advice is not to pay over $50 for a tool unless you are certain of it's provenance and only then when you have done some research into the matter and gained a bit of knowledge into the field. If you wish to put your faith in a dealer, that is your choice.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"> __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-06-2003, 05:18 AM	#3
Stevie User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Ok. Posts: 212 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Probably the tools are the better part of my garage sale stuff, but I get excited over P08 leftovers. My brother has already forbidden me to get rid of any ancient tools or even older double barrel shotgun parts, until he gets to look at them. Any body need an unidentified Mauser rear sight; or an old, but brand new petrified recoil pad? How about a box of nothing but .22 cal. scope mount parts and screws? Some Lyman sight pieces, front and rear, anyone? Stevie.

08-06-2003, 07:56 AM	#5
Stevie User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Ok. Posts: 212 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Shoot! I don't know. The only caliper I have on hand reads a thickness of 1.250", a repro tool I purchased new as a repro. tool measures .910". I dont't have a metric conversion capability right at the moment. None of your pics. represent the screwdriver tip style found on my new tool. I suspect it's an East German tool or possibly a late replacement tool. It is probably at least 30 years old( judging the junk I bought)or possibly 100 years old(judging some of the debris in my box); it may be worth thousands of dollars. Unfortunately its's probably not worth the $12 I spent to get it( and the P08 grip sets and couple of parts),still cool stuff! I will try to post some pictures. Thanx, Stevie.

08-06-2003, 08:23 AM	#6
Stevie User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Ok. Posts: 212 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	My decimal points are in the wrong place in my previous posts measurments! They should read .125" (newest tool) and .091"( repro tool I bought new)Yikes!I can't measure for squat. Sorry, Stevie. P.S. My newest Luger tool is not 1 and 1/4" thick.

08-06-2003, 05:54 PM	#7
Stevie User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Ok. Posts: 212 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Fake!!! Egads, my new Luger tool is over 3mm in thickness. Looking at some original tools online, and Ed's above picture, shows to me that my tool is likely an aftermarket replacement. It does look nice and original, very close to proper shape, but thick and has an odd screwdriver tip. Thanx guy's, Stevie.

08-19-2003, 06:09 PM	#8
Jim Keenan User Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 184 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I have one with no grooves and no markings at all, that measures 2.75mm in thickness. It looks pretty old, and has a sharp cornered, hollow-ground screwdriver point. Anyone's guess as to what it is. I bought it as a commercial tool, but paid so little ($15) that it doesn't matter as long as it works. Jim Jim