1906/29 Swiss 7.65

Frank H · 06-28-2003, 10:34 PM

Swiss Military, 1929, Geneva Cross in shield. My question is about the plastic red-orange grips? the mag also has red orange base? Can this be correct for this gun? Help! Thanks

Ron Wood · 06-28-2003, 10:48 PM

Absolutely! As a matter of fact, for some collectors the red grips and mag base command a premium.

panda · 06-29-2003, 03:01 AM

Dr. Frank,

When acquiring a 06/29-1 it's important to get one with neat grips (applies to the 82/29-1 revolver too). The quality of the grips will largely determine the price of the parabellum. The mags can always be bought separately later since they aren't numbered (no matching problems). However, the mags are pretty expensive when in good conditions.

Could you show me a "Geneva Cross in shield"?

Thanks, Panda

Ron Wood · 06-29-2003, 05:25 PM

Panda,

Since you use the "Geneva Cross in shield" as your avatar, I guess you must have another designation for it. What do you call it?

Pete Ebbink · 06-29-2003, 06:56 PM

Hello Dr. Frank,

Welcome to the Luger Forum !

For good information about the Swiss lugers, you might want to pick up the book by Vittorio Bobba; which is written in both Italian and English. This book in the USA normally runs about $ 100.00 in new condition.

The Swiss M1929 W+F Bern first came out with red canevasite grips and magazine bottom, then the Swiss switched to brown coloured plastic, and finally switched to black coloured plastic.

If you let us know the serial number of the gun in question (you can leave an "x" or two at the end of the number...), we can tell you if the gun is "correct" with red plastic or not...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

panda · 06-30-2003, 10:16 AM

Ron,

I don't know what strange names you use over there. In any case my avatar represents the Swiss cross in shield, the one you find in the Swiss flag. It's the official logo of the Swiss federal state since about 1908 (I think). You find this one on all Swiss ordinance weapons. If you look at the Swiss DWM1900 and 00/06 1st variation you'll find the old logo.

As to Geneva, it looks like this:

But you won't find it on any weapon of the Swiss federal army (obviously). Possibly you may find it on pre-1870 guns, when there were still cantonal armies.

Panda

panda · 06-30-2003, 10:55 AM

What you call "Geneva Cross in shield"
is called "Schweizer Kreuz im Wappenschild" in Switzerland, where "Schweizer Kreuz" means "Swiss Cross". See for example the Rutsch book, page 204.

I just wonder where this "Geneva Cross" comes from. The only cross from Geneva I know is the Red-Cross (which has little to do with this).

panda · 06-30-2003, 10:59 AM

Pete,
Nice lugers! I'm impressed by the bluing.
Do you have enlarged pictures so we can better admire them

Panda

Ron Wood · 06-30-2003, 11:23 AM

Panda,
Thank you for the excellent explanation. I do not know where the term "Geneva cross" originated. I have seen it in some publications but I do not use it myself. I usually refer to the symbol as the "Swiss Cross" or "Federal Cross".

Pete Ebbink · 06-30-2003, 06:51 PM

Hello Panda,

I will try to find some time this weekend to post some better close-ups of these pistols; maybe in a member's gallery...we have been packing things away and I am not sure if the camera is packed up or not...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Pete Ebbink · 06-30-2003, 08:59 PM

Dr. Frank,

In reference to the gun you are considering to buy that is in the # 537xx series :

I think you can comfortably be satisifed that this pistol is a model M1929 W+F Bern luger and that it would have come, originally, with red grips and magazine base.

V. Bobba indicates in his book that such red plastic appeared in the # 50,001 to # 57,000 or there abouts. Your pistol, # 537xx, is safely well into the "acceptable" range to have red plastic...

Since the red, canevasit material was very brittle and easily broken, you will also find many M1929 Berns that should be in the "red range" that will have replacement, arsenal-issued brown or black plastic...

Even if you go ahead and buy this gun right away, I would still suggest you pick up the Bobba book. You can learn alot about your pistol's history (e.g. what month, year it was actually made) and more.

Just to tease you; I can tell your pistol was made in 1936 from its serial number and that only 300 were made that year, but a stamping inside the frame well of your gun will actually tell you what month in 1936 the pistol was made...

See the attached page copy from the Bobba book Just Click on the Photo to see it full size :

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/bobbaserials2.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/bobbaserials2.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

Pricing amongst USA dealers for a red 1929 Bern in 98% condition has been running around $ 2200 to $ 2500 in the past 4-5 months.

If you do bring this luger home, please feel free to post photos of your new find here on the Luger Forum...

Good Luck !

Pete...

Pete Ebbink · 07-01-2003, 12:09 PM

Sources for the V. Bobba book :

http://www.rayrilingarmsbooks.com/cg...ml?id=3hRhvuPj

http://dogbert.abebooks.com/servlet/...L?bi=175813866

http://www.simpsonltd.com/books_for_sale.htm
(see item # 28...)

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Pete Ebbink · 07-06-2003, 07:48 PM

Hello Dr. Frank and Panda,

I have posted some close-up photos of my 1929 W+F Bern luger (w/ red plastic) in the Member's Gallery.

I will create another Gallery for my 1906 W+F Bern sometime this coming-up week, as my workload permits...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

panda · 07-07-2003, 04:47 AM

Pete,
Thanks for sharing pics of this absolutely splendid 06/29-1!
I noted that the "P" is missing. My M82/29-1 has also no "P" and is also in an outstanding condition (bluing). Does anyone have an explanation why the "P" may be missing?

Thanks, Panda

panda · 07-08-2003, 12:23 PM

By the way, I found out that "Geneva Cross" is the name that is sometimes given to the sign of the Red Cross:

which actually looks exactly like the Swiss Cross but with an inverted colour arrangement. I guess somebody got confused.

Ron Wood · 07-08-2003, 01:20 PM

Panda, you are exactly right! The following is a quote from the American Red Cross website:
Ã¢??In October 1863, The International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement was created in Geneva, Switzerland, to provide nonpartisan care to the wounded and sick in times of war. The Red Cross emblem was adapted at this first International Conference as a symbol of neutrality and was to be used by national relief societies. The symbol is composed of five equal squares, sometimes referred to as a Greek cross. It was chosen because it is a reverse of the colors of the Swiss flag and because the red cross on a background of white was easily recognized and reproducible on battlefields.Ã¢?Â

Pete Ebbink · 07-10-2003, 11:29 PM

Hello Panda,

I have just created a new Member's Gallery for my Swiss 1906 W+F Bern luger.

Enjoy !

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Frank H · 07-11-2003, 10:30 PM

Pete: Really nice pics of the Swiss, What kind of camera are you using? I'd like one that works so well!
Frank

Pete Ebbink · 07-12-2003, 04:04 PM

Hello Dr. Frank,

I bought a Casio QV-2000 camera with a 1.5" sq. IBM micro-drive that holds up to 340 MB of jpeg data...enough for 500 photos at 1600 x 1200 pixel size...

It's been 2-3 years when a 2.0 megapixel camera was state-of-the-art. Today, cameras are up to 5.0 megapixels.

Here is the link to Casio's current product line :

http://www.casio.com/index.cfm?fusea...atalog=Cameras

I think there are some much better cameras out and prices have really dropped.

Mine has limits with macro-photography and getting close-ups in focus. I have improved by using a small tripod to help steady the shots.

If I were looking for a new one, very good close-up luger-photography would be the most important feature I would look for in a new one. My old one will still be great for years to come for my professional work...

p.s.

Did you end up buying that red 1906/29 W+F Bern luger ? If yes, we all suspect this will not be your last...

Best Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

panda · 07-13-2003, 07:57 AM

Well done Pete!
Wow what a nice 06/24. Is it the original bluing?
If it is, you've really got a nice piece there, especially since the bluing of 06 W+Fs is much more superficial than the one of 06 DWMs and wears easily away (I can tell from the ones I have!).
Where did you find this one?

06-28-2003, 10:34 PM	#1
Frank H User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: N. FL Posts: 90 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	1906/29 Swiss 7.65 Swiss Military, 1929, Geneva Cross in shield. My question is about the plastic red-orange grips? the mag also has red orange base? Can this be correct for this gun? Help! Thanks

06-28-2003, 10:48 PM	#2
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	Absolutely! As a matter of fact, for some collectors the red grips and mag base command a premium. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

06-29-2003, 05:25 PM	#4
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	Panda, Since you use the "Geneva Cross in shield" as your avatar, I guess you must have another designation for it. What do you call it? __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

06-30-2003, 11:23 AM	#9
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	Panda, Thank you for the excellent explanation. I do not know where the term "Geneva cross" originated. I have seen it in some publications but I do not use it myself. I usually refer to the symbol as the "Swiss Cross" or "Federal Cross". __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

07-08-2003, 01:20 PM	#16
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	Panda, you are exactly right! The following is a quote from the American Red Cross website: Ã¢??In October 1863, The International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement was created in Geneva, Switzerland, to provide nonpartisan care to the wounded and sick in times of war. The Red Cross emblem was adapted at this first International Conference as a symbol of neutrality and was to be used by national relief societies. The symbol is composed of five equal squares, sometimes referred to as a Greek cross. It was chosen because it is a reverse of the colors of the Swiss flag and because the red cross on a background of white was easily recognized and reproducible on battlefields.Ã¢?Â __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

06-29-2003, 03:01 AM	#3
panda User Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 148 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Dr. Frank, When acquiring a 06/29-1 it's important to get one with neat grips (applies to the 82/29-1 revolver too). The quality of the grips will largely determine the price of the parabellum. The mags can always be bought separately later since they aren't numbered (no matching problems). However, the mags are pretty expensive when in good conditions. Could you show me a "Geneva Cross in shield"? Thanks, Panda

06-29-2003, 06:56 PM	#5
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Dr. Frank, Welcome to the Luger Forum ! For good information about the Swiss lugers, you might want to pick up the book by Vittorio Bobba; which is written in both Italian and English. This book in the USA normally runs about $ 100.00 in new condition. The Swiss M1929 W+F Bern first came out with red canevasite grips and magazine bottom, then the Swiss switched to brown coloured plastic, and finally switched to black coloured plastic. If you let us know the serial number of the gun in question (you can leave an "x" or two at the end of the number...), we can tell you if the gun is "correct" with red plastic or not... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

06-30-2003, 10:16 AM	#6
panda User Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 148 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ron, I don't know what strange names you use over there. In any case my avatar represents the Swiss cross in shield, the one you find in the Swiss flag. It's the official logo of the Swiss federal state since about 1908 (I think). You find this one on all Swiss ordinance weapons. If you look at the Swiss DWM1900 and 00/06 1st variation you'll find the old logo. As to Geneva, it looks like this: But you won't find it on any weapon of the Swiss federal army (obviously). Possibly you may find it on pre-1870 guns, when there were still cantonal armies. Panda

06-30-2003, 10:55 AM	#7
panda User Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 148 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	What you call "Geneva Cross in shield" is called "Schweizer Kreuz im Wappenschild" in Switzerland, where "Schweizer Kreuz" means "Swiss Cross". See for example the Rutsch book, page 204. I just wonder where this "Geneva Cross" comes from. The only cross from Geneva I know is the Red-Cross (which has little to do with this).

06-30-2003, 10:59 AM	#8
panda User Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 148 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Pete, Nice lugers! I'm impressed by the bluing. Do you have enlarged pictures so we can better admire them Panda

06-30-2003, 06:51 PM	#10
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Panda, I will try to find some time this weekend to post some better close-ups of these pistols; maybe in a member's gallery...we have been packing things away and I am not sure if the camera is packed up or not... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

06-30-2003, 08:59 PM	#11
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Dr. Frank, In reference to the gun you are considering to buy that is in the # 537xx series : I think you can comfortably be satisifed that this pistol is a model M1929 W+F Bern luger and that it would have come, originally, with red grips and magazine base. V. Bobba indicates in his book that such red plastic appeared in the # 50,001 to # 57,000 or there abouts. Your pistol, # 537xx, is safely well into the "acceptable" range to have red plastic... Since the red, canevasit material was very brittle and easily broken, you will also find many M1929 Berns that should be in the "red range" that will have replacement, arsenal-issued brown or black plastic... Even if you go ahead and buy this gun right away, I would still suggest you pick up the Bobba book. You can learn alot about your pistol's history (e.g. what month, year it was actually made) and more. Just to tease you; I can tell your pistol was made in 1936 from its serial number and that only 300 were made that year, but a stamping inside the frame well of your gun will actually tell you what month in 1936 the pistol was made... See the attached page copy from the Bobba book Just Click on the Photo to see it full size : <a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/bobbaserials2.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/bobbaserials2.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> Pricing amongst USA dealers for a red 1929 Bern in 98% condition has been running around $ 2200 to $ 2500 in the past 4-5 months. If you do bring this luger home, please feel free to post photos of your new find here on the Luger Forum... Good Luck ! Pete...

07-01-2003, 12:09 PM	#12
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Sources for the V. Bobba book : http://www.rayrilingarmsbooks.com/cg...ml?id=3hRhvuPj http://dogbert.abebooks.com/servlet/...L?bi=175813866 http://www.simpsonltd.com/books_for_sale.htm (see item # 28...) Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

07-06-2003, 07:48 PM	#13
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Dr. Frank and Panda, I have posted some close-up photos of my 1929 W+F Bern luger (w/ red plastic) in the Member's Gallery. I will create another Gallery for my 1906 W+F Bern sometime this coming-up week, as my workload permits... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

07-07-2003, 04:47 AM	#14
panda User Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 148 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Pete, Thanks for sharing pics of this absolutely splendid 06/29-1! I noted that the "P" is missing. My M82/29-1 has also no "P" and is also in an outstanding condition (bluing). Does anyone have an explanation why the "P" may be missing? Thanks, Panda

07-08-2003, 12:23 PM	#15
panda User Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 148 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	By the way, I found out that "Geneva Cross" is the name that is sometimes given to the sign of the Red Cross: which actually looks exactly like the Swiss Cross but with an inverted colour arrangement. I guess somebody got confused.

07-10-2003, 11:29 PM	#17
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Panda, I have just created a new Member's Gallery for my Swiss 1906 W+F Bern luger. Enjoy ! Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

07-11-2003, 10:30 PM	#18
Frank H User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: N. FL Posts: 90 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Pete: Really nice pics of the Swiss, What kind of camera are you using? I'd like one that works so well! Frank

07-12-2003, 04:04 PM	#19
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Dr. Frank, I bought a Casio QV-2000 camera with a 1.5" sq. IBM micro-drive that holds up to 340 MB of jpeg data...enough for 500 photos at 1600 x 1200 pixel size... It's been 2-3 years when a 2.0 megapixel camera was state-of-the-art. Today, cameras are up to 5.0 megapixels. Here is the link to Casio's current product line : http://www.casio.com/index.cfm?fusea...atalog=Cameras I think there are some much better cameras out and prices have really dropped. Mine has limits with macro-photography and getting close-ups in focus. I have improved by using a small tripod to help steady the shots. If I were looking for a new one, very good close-up luger-photography would be the most important feature I would look for in a new one. My old one will still be great for years to come for my professional work... p.s. Did you end up buying that red 1906/29 W+F Bern luger ? If yes, we all suspect this will not be your last... Best Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

07-13-2003, 07:57 AM	#20
panda User Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 148 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Well done Pete! Wow what a nice 06/24. Is it the original bluing? If it is, you've really got a nice piece there, especially since the bluing of 06 W+Fs is much more superficial than the one of 06 DWMs and wears easily away (I can tell from the ones I have!). Where did you find this one?